Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[leftysergeant]

It sounds to me like the phone's battery suddenly died or became disconnected so the phone wasn't able to write the current buffers to nonvolatile flash.

What would be more relevant would be Z's GPS data. If it shows him south of the point where Martin's phone was found, or moving down Twin Trees to intercept, he's toast.

 

[KatieG]

If I had $57,000.00 in the bank and that's all I had, with my husband no longer able to work, then I would feel I did NOT have the finances to pay for a defense. And I'm sure many would feel the same. Imagine the enormity of this in her mind...I imagine she would have felt completely overwhelmed by the prospect of the cost of a defense and having to keep up with their own personal bills and living expenses.

It was money donated for GZs defense, not for them to live high on the hog. Moving it from his account to hers does not relieve them of the responsibility to use the money for its designated purpose. The whole purpose of moving the money was to hide it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What would be more relevant would be Z's GPS data. If it shows him south of the point where Martin's phone was found, or moving down Twin Trees to intercept, he's toast.

If only GZ cooperated and gave the police his phone ....

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam...ts/2012/12/zimmerman-fdle-cell-phone-help.pdf

Zimmerman also voluntarily agreed to a data search of his personal cell phone...

It's too bad Mr. Martin didn't feel the need to cooperate ....

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...rge-zimmerman-special-prosecutor-angela-corey

On March 5, Sanford police Sgt. Joe Santiago asked Tracy Martin for the PIN, according to a police report. Tracy Martin said he'd check with his attorney.
Martin never got back with police. At a March 8 news conference in Orlando, Tracy Martin told reporters he would not help police download information from the phone.

It certainly seems like one party has something to hide, and that party isn't GZ.

 

[johnny karate]

It certainly seems like one party has something to hide, and that party isn't GZ.

What do imagine Tracy Martin had to hide?

And if you don't think Zimmerman is hiding things, you need to explain why his bond is now a lot higher than it originally was, and why the conditions of his bond are much stricter than they originally were.

 

[Unabogie]

I'd forgotten some of the particulars of Shellie's charging document, but to those who said above that maybe she didn't know that the money ($74,000 in her own account) was for defending George, she was discussing whether or not to use the money for the bond or just pay 10%. She said "that's what it's for". Therefore, of course she knew the money in her account could be used in his defense.

Next, she was also asked if she had an estimate of the money in those accounts from the Paypal fund, and she said no, she didn't. This is clearly untrue since she was the one moving the funds back and forth. How does someone move money back and forth between two accounts and yet still have no clue how much they just moved?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/96866004/Shellie-Zimmerman-Arrest-6-12-12

This is just devastating.

 

[Dan O.]

I'll tell you what - if you provide evidence Android actually works the way you have described, I'll consider that a possibility. Good luck.

Whether you like it or not, until evidence shows otherwise, the possibility exists. You can isolate yourself through denial but it won't change the facts.

 

[Unabogie]

I
So you say. Even if it does, it does not prove GZ was not acting in self defense.

I missed this part earlier. It perfectly illustrates my point. You're saying that even if George's entire narrative crumbles on the stand; even if the state can CONCLUSIVELY demonstrate that he just made up the story he told to justify killing a 17 year old, it's STILL not enough in your mind to justify a conviction.

That's truly mind boggling.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What do imagine Tracy Martin had to hide?

And if you don't think Zimmerman is hiding things, you need to explain why his bond is now a lot higher than it originally was, and why the conditions of his bond are much stricter than they originally were.

I'm not sure, you should ask him why he decided cooperating with the police was a bad idea.

I'm guessing he didn't want them to find out what was on the phone because he feared there would be something on there that would be bad to the show the police. Otherwise it would seem self evident that it would be a good idea to help the police when they are trying to determine what GZ is guilty of.

I'm open to other theories, though.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I missed this part earlier. It perfectly illustrates my point. You're saying that even if George's entire narrative crumbles on the stand; even if the state can CONCLUSIVELY demonstrate that he just made up the story he told to justify killing a 17 year old, it's STILL not enough in your mind to justify a conviction.

That's truly mind boggling.

What's mind boggling is your claim that if the jury doesn't believe all of GZ story, that somehow proves beyond a reasonable doubt he murdered TM.

Particularly your claim that there's some specific day being withheld from the defense. You're alleging that there's data that the state has that they won't give to O'Mara.

That's MOMs claim. HE claims data is being withheld.

I want to know if you think he is lying about the data for every day except the 26th being there - yes or no ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Whether you like it or not, until evidence shows otherwise, the possibility exists. You can isolate yourself through denial but it won't change the facts.

You made a claim that something could have happened, but that claim runs counter to how android works. Now I am supposed to prove to you that android doesn't work that way , instead of you providing evidence in support of your claim ?

That's bizzare.

If I said 'possibility exists' that Little Green Men came down and stole the data for the 26th, would that also be a possibility until someone proved otherwise ?

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not sure, you should ask him why he decided cooperating with the police was a bad idea.

I'm guessing he didn't want them to find out what was on the phone because he feared there would be something on there that would be bad to the show the police. Otherwise it would seem self evident that it would be a good idea to help the police when they are trying to determine what GZ is guilty of.

I'm open to other theories, though.

Perhaps a grief-stricken father made an emotionally-charge decision not to help the police he believed let his son's murder walk free.

But you're probably right. Tracy Martin didn't want the police to see that "Hey Dad, on my way home from the store I'm going to beat someone to death, so I might be a little late" text his son sent him.

And I see you didn't respond to the second part of my post, probably realizing what a huge pile you had stepped in trying to sound so righteous about Zimmerman's honesty.

Good move on your part.

It's probably best not to double-down on a losing position.

 

[johnny karate]

What's mind boggling is your claim that if the jury doesn't believe all of GZ story, that somehow proves beyond a reasonable doubt he murdered TM.

This has been explained to you several times.

Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. That is not in dispute.

If his self-defense claim goes away, murder is all that is left.

That's MOMs claim. HE claims data is being withheld.

I want to know if you think he is lying about the data for every day except the 26th being there - yes or no ?

You presented his claim as fact, so it becomes your claim to defend.

It's not up to anyone else to prove he's lying.

It's up to you to prove what you presented as a fact is true.

 

[Unabogie]

What's mind boggling is your claim that if the jury doesn't believe all of GZ story, that somehow proves beyond a reasonable doubt he murdered TM

I didn't say they'd fail to believe all his story, I said his story would crumble apart, and you said that wouldn't be enough to convict.

A killer's story falls apart under scrutiny and you think he should walk.

 

[Mumbles]

I didn't say they'd fail to believe all his story, I said his story would crumble apart, and you said that wouldn't be enough to convict.

A killer's story falls apart under scrutiny and you think he should walk.

Well, it's not like his story is very good in the first place, to be honest.

"Yeah, I saw this guy walking down the street, and I followed him in my car, and then when he got frightened and ran off I got out and followed him on foot, and when we met up, I immediately stuck my hands in my pockets, and then he punched me!"

Well, yes, Zimmerman's self-described behavior is remarkably threatening. It's not something I'd ever do, so I don't see how it could possibly help his self-defense claim with a logical jury - although it may help with an illogical jury.

And that's not to bash you - I think we're in agreement on this. But I think it's best to note Zimmerman's own statements, since they give a strong reason to find him at fault.

 

[Dan O.]

You made a claim that something could have happened, but that claim runs counter to how android works. Now I am supposed to prove to you that android doesn't work that way , instead of you providing evidence in support of your claim ?

That's bizzare.

If I said 'possibility exists' that Little Green Men came down and stole the data for the 26th, would that also be a possibility until someone proved otherwise ?

Are you making the claim as to how Android works? That claim is counter to the fact that the data for the last day is missing. Is there any support for that claim?

Deferring writting of secondary data to flash would be an engineering trade off. Flash writes cost energy and repeated writes reduce the life of the flash so there would be justification to delay until at least a full block is ready.

As to your "Little Green Men" theory: Where is your justification that they are little? Green? Men? Came down? Apart from your straw padding, you are proposing a conspiracy theory that someone erased the data. Who has the burden of proof on that?


ETA: given that there are a number of third party GPS tracking apps for the android, it appears that tracking is not an internal function of the android OS. This brings up the possibility that the APP was not running every day.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Perhaps a grief-stricken father made an emotionally-charge decision not to help the police he believed let his son's murder walk free..

Appeal to emotion much ?

What is is you think is on the phone that would let GZ walk free ?

But you're probably right. Tracy Martin didn't want the police to see that "Hey Dad, on my way home from the store I'm going to beat someone to death, so I might be a little late" text his son sent him.

So your alternate theory is that TM was texting his dad about how he was going to beat people ?

And I see you didn't respond to the second part of my post, probably realizing what a huge pile you had stepped in trying to sound so righteous about Zimmerman's honesty.

Good move on your part.

It's probably best not to double-down on a losing position.

Or simply because it had nothing to do with my post.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I didn't say they'd fail to believe all his story, I said his story would crumble apart, and you said that wouldn't be enough to convict.

A killer's story falls apart under scrutiny and you think he should walk.

I know Johnny Karate has has issues with how the law works in this regard, and it appears you do too ... but the state is required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ didn't act in self defense. Because that is the legal standard they need to meet.

I don't know why you think that if certain aspects of GZ story seem inconsistent to you, like the location of the body, that somehow will fulfill the requirements to prove beyond a reasonable doubt GZ was not acting in self defense.

I also don't understand why you keep dodging the question about whether you think MOM is lying or not.

I want to know if you think he is lying about the data for every day except the 26th being there - yes or no ?

And it is also kind of funny - way back in this thread, here, you told crimresearch to stop snipping your posts, but you find it OK to do it to mine:

You snipped my post for some reason. Please don't do that. Just bold whatever you want to respond to. I wasn't saying it was the standard for PC. It's the standard for the hearing that comes next, which is the preliminary hearing, which is what this affidavit was addressing. They lay out what their case is, and at the next hearing, they will have a very low threshold to meet. Everything taken in "the light most favorable to the prosecution". So if the DA says that's not Zimmerman screaming, the judge has to accept that and rule that as evidence for PC.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Are you making the claim as to how Android works?

No, that's what you did

Your proposed reason for data for an entire day being missing was:

phone wasn't able to write the current buffers to nonvolatile flash.

If you want to claim that, then you need to provide evidence android actually works that way, not writing any GPS data for an entire day to flash, and storing it all in RAM.

That claim is counter to the fact that the data for the last day is missing. Is there any support for that claim?

Deferring writting of secondary data to flash would be an engineering trade off. Flash writes cost energy and repeated writes reduce the life of the flash so there would be justification to delay until at least a full block is ready.

As to your "Little Green Men" theory: Where is your justification that they are little? Green? Men? Came down? Apart from your straw padding, you are proposing a conspiracy theory that someone erased the data. Who has the burden of proof on that?


ETA: given that there are a number of third party GPS tracking apps for the android, it appears that tracking is not an internal function of the android OS. This brings up the possibility that the APP was not running every day.

Again, the phone does track it's location through cell tower locations, as an internal function of the OS. Again, you are making claims about how Android works without backing it up with evidence, and those claims are wrong.
http://forensics.spreitzenbarth.de/2011/10/28/decoding-cache-cell-and-cache-wifi-files/
As everybody knows, Android is maintaining two cache files with location information. One is cache.wifi (a wifi router database with MAC and GPS of the router) the other is cache.cell (a database with mobile communication cells and their GPS).

Well, I guess not everybody.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This has been explained to you several times.

Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. That is not in dispute.

If his self-defense claim goes away, murder is all that is left.

Sure, only the claim doesn't just "go away" unless the state proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense.

You have repeatedly declined to let us know what evidence you think they will use to do that.

You presented his claim as fact, so it becomes your claim to defend.

It's not up to anyone else to prove he's lying.

It's up to you to prove what you presented as a fact is true.

I didn't ask anyone to prove he's lying. I asked unabogie if he believed MOM was lying or not.

Unless this is all about scoring some kind of debate points or some other game I am unaware of, I thought it would be easy for him to say whether he thinks MOM is lying or not.

 

[johnny karate]

Appeal to emotion much ?

It's not an appeal to emotion, it's an alternate theory, which is what you requested.

If I wanted to make an appeal to emotion, I'd point how I think maligning the character of a man who had just lost his son is kind of a crappy thing to do.

What is is you think is on the phone that would let GZ walk free ?

Nothing. But that's not what I said. The police had already let Zimmerman walk free. An angry, grief-stricken father might not wish to aid people he felt were siding with his son's murderer.

So your alternate theory is that TM was texting his dad about how he was going to beat people ?

No, it's a farcical jab at people who imagine nefarious motives in the actions of a man who had just lost his child.

Or simply because it had nothing to do with my post.

It was a direct response to your previous post. Here, let me refresh your memory:

It certainly seems like one party has something to hide, and that party isn't GZ.

That's where you took a shot at Tracy Martin while attempting to drape Zimmerman in the cloak of righteousness.

I'm still laughing at how badly it failed.