Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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And for me.
Even as of today, they're steadfastly ignoring the 14C dating and seem to believe in the invisible patch idea.
I've never understood how that idea gained any credence, especially after the 2002 restoration showed there was no such thing.
 
pakeha said:
And for me.
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Yes, their DNS issues seem to be resolved.

pakeha said:
Even as of today, they're steadfastly ignoring the 14C dating and seem to believe in the invisible patch idea.
I've never understood how that idea gained any credence, especially after the 2002 restoration showed there was no such thing.
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Probably because you're approaching this from the rational perspective, i.e. accepting facts and evidence and determining opinions and beliefs from them. The believer mindset is programmed with beliefs initially and filters facts and evidence through these, ignoring, denying, distorting or misrepresenting as needed to maintain the beliefs.
 
This is neither the thread nor the forum for your conspiracy fantasies.

Please could you address the carbon dating results. To remind you, your argument needs to be along the lines of:

"I think that the carbon dating results, obtained from three independent labs, are unreliable because <specific problem with the collection, storage or examination of the samples>. The evidence to support my assertion is <evidence>".

Argument along the lines of "blood on the shroud, if present, means a 1st century date as no mediaeval artist had access to blood" are a waste of your time and the site's bandwidth.
 
Oh dear, Jabba appears to have left the building again.

I wonder why...
 
He pops back every day*, presumably to see whether there's any warmth left in this thread.



* Yeah, I check
 

All the words in the world
Have now been said
And all arguments
Have been finally put to bed.
But with every new post
We all grumble aloud
'Cause it's long past time
To bury this rotten shroud.
​
 
- Remember that you guys keep telling me to do something rather than tell you what I'm going to do... That's exactly what I've been doing. Also remember that I'm naturally slow.
- If you've changed your mind, I'm happy to tell you what I'm trying to do. But otherwise -- I'm working here! :D
--- Jabba
 
The Norseman said:

All the words in the world
Have now been said
And all arguments
Have been finally put to bed.
But with every new post
We all grumble aloud
'Cause it's long past time
To bury this rotten shroud.
​
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Norseman,
- Good poem! Though, I think it would be really good (it would flow better) if you left out "finally" in line 4, and "rotten" in line 8.
--- Jabba
 
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Agatha said:
This is neither the thread nor the forum for your conspiracy fantasies.

Please could you address the carbon dating results. To remind you, your argument needs to be along the lines of:

"I think that the carbon dating results, obtained from three independent labs, are unreliable because <specific problem with the collection, storage or examination of the samples>. The evidence to support my assertion is <evidence>".

Argument along the lines of "blood on the shroud, if present, means a 1st century date as no mediaeval artist had access to blood" are a waste of your time and the site's bandwidth.
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Agatha,
- While I'm here -- look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
- But then, don't really expect me to respond to a followup from you -- cause I have to concentrate on trying to show why you guys should believe that the blood is real, and how that leads to a conclusion that the dating was wrong.
--- Jabba
 
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Jabba said:
- Remember that you guys keep telling me to do something rather than tell you what I'm going to do... That's exactly what I've been doing. Also remember that I'm naturally slow.
- If you've changed your mind, I'm happy to tell you what I'm trying to do. But otherwise -- I'm working here! :D
--- Jabba
Click to expand...

You came back just to tell us that?
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- While I'm here -- look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
Click to expand...
Link to the post where you explain what was wrong with the Carbon dating, please. (Note: what was wrong, not why you think it really must be wrong.)

- But then, don't really expect me to respond to a followup from you -- cause I have to concentrate on trying to show why you guys should believe that the blood is real, and how that leads to a conclusion that the dating was wrong.
Click to expand...

You're not reading any of the replies, are you? Even if it was real blood (yet to be proved, and there is evidence that it isn't blood), in conjunction with the dating, it would just show that the blood was from the 14th century. Please show in which years of the last two thousand human blood was not available.
 
Jabba said:
- Remember that you guys keep telling me to do something rather than tell you what I'm going to do...
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And yet.


Jabba said:
That's exactly what I've been doing. Also remember that I'm naturally slow.
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Let E = amount of evidence for shroud authenticity, T = time taken to present the aforementioned evidence and R = the result achieved.

Then:

R = T x E​

Substituting:

R = bloody great gobs x 0

= 0​


Take your time. It can't get any worse.


Jabba said:
- If you've changed your mind, I'm happy to tell you what I'm trying to do.
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You're trying to establish that you've invented a method of argumentation whereby the rankest amateur without a skerrick of evidence can convince the world's most sceptical audience that history's most unlikely events are 100% true.


Jabba said:
But otherwise -- I'm working here! :D
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I can't imagine why you find such a tragic pursuit to be at all amusing.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- While I'm here -- look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
Click to expand...


Since the issue remains that the shroud is a fake it seems that it's your opinion which needs to be either revised or discarded.

If it's any help, everyone else has already done the discarding thing.


Jabba said:
- But then, don't really expect me to respond to a followup from you -- cause I have to concentrate on trying to show why you guys should believe that the blood is real, and how that leads to a conclusion that the dating was wrong.
Click to expand...


Is it ever going to get through to you that it matters not one iota if you demonstrate beyond any possible doubt that there's real blood on the shroud, the case for it being an artefact of the first century CE will not have advanced by even the tiniest amount?

Even should all of us here assembled somehow contrive to sign an affadavit that we accept, without question, that there's real blood on the ****** shroud, you're no closer to making your case than you ever were.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- While I'm here -- look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
Click to expand...

I've read every one of your posts in this thread, and I don't see any where you resolve the carbon dating issue.
 
Jabba said:
look back over what I've been saying for the last few months, and you'll that see I've already addressed (and in my opinion, resolved) your issues.
Click to expand...
I've no doubt you think you've resolved them. However, that belief is just one more figment of your imagination. You HAVE NOT resolved them. What you've done is known in the trade as "dodging" them.

But then, don't really expect me to respond to a followup from you
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You've been so bad at this so far that none of us expect anything different. It's been well over a hundred pages and you still haven't gotten around to discussing the C14 dating.

cause I have to concentrate on trying to show why you guys should believe that the blood is real, and how that leads to a conclusion that the dating was wrong.
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It's impossible. It cannot be done. Even if the blood was real it wouldn't have any impact on the date. Since humans after the 1st century AD have had blood, the presence of blood on the shroud means NOTHING in terms of the date. Because the Bible was the most widely known and read book in the Middle Ages, agreement with the Bible means NOTHING in terms of the date (after all, they could read what it should look like). Nothing about how the image was made, or what it was made out of, is going to disprove the C14 dating. The only way to disprove it is to show that contamination has occurred, and we've already proven that in order for THAT to happen, you'd need to have more contamination than shroud.
 
Jabba said:
Norseman,
- Good poem! Though, I think it would be really good (it would flow better) if you left out "finally" in line 4, and "rotten" in line 8.
--- Jabba
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Yes, you're probably right. I believe it's too late to change it, so my five minutes' work will have to stand as-is. :)
 
Jabba said:
- Remember that you guys keep telling me to do something rather than tell you what I'm going to do... That's exactly what I've been doing.
Click to expand...



Excellent, as long as that "something that you are dong", is what every single person here has repeatedly asked you to do, which is to produce a direct explanation of why you think the C14 dating is wrong.

So you will be either (A)producing at least one genuine independent properly published research paper where the authors claim that the C14 dates are in error, right?

Or if you cannot find even one such paper contradicting the C14, then (B)you will be finally making a clear & unequivocal admission that you do not actually know of any such independent scientific evidence against the C14, right?

You are just going to do either A or B, right?
 
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