LDS

[Sideroxylon]

I do not consider there is ANY evidence that the Book of Abraham is not the word of God, nor could there be.

The "mindless repeating" is from those who continually mock and insult Holy Scripture of which they have no knowledge nor understanding.

How about a comparison of his half-arsed interpretations with that of experts in Ancient Egyptian culture and language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Facsimile_No._1

My favorite is where he interprets the scene in Facsimile One as a sacrifice while the experts tell us that it is a familiar resurrection scene. Oops

He sure botched his efforts to fill in the gaps too!

 

[Pixel42]

I do not consider there is ANY evidence that the Book of Abraham is not the word of God, nor could there be.

Then why are you here? This is a discussion forum, not a "mindlessly repeat your manifestly absurd beliefs whilst wilfully ignoring the evidence that proves them wrong" forum.

The "mindless repeating" is from those who continually mock and insult Holy Scripture of which they have no knowledge nor understanding.

Thanks to the research that contributors to this thread have undertaken and shared most posters here now have a far greater knowledge and understanding of the true nature of your "Holy Scripture" than you do. If you would only open your mind you could obtain it too, but you refuse to do so.

 

[Akhenaten]

I do not consider there is ANY evidence that the Book of Abraham is not the word of God, nor could there be.

You have, therefore, nothing whatsoever to offer in this discussion and even less chance of gaining anything from it.

Why are you here?

The "mindless repeating" is from those who continually mock and insult Holy Scripture of which they have no knowledge nor understanding.

What you're calling "Holy Scripture" is a poorly crafted collection of gobbledigook designed to hoodwink and ensnare the simple folk of almost two centuries ago who had very limited means of knowing any better.

That it still works on people living in the 21st century is, quite frankly, somewhat terrifying.

 

[DragonLady]

The surprising thing is that right here in this thread, there was evidence presented for barley in the pre-Columbian Americas, from a neutral (non-LDS) source. Don't recall who brought it up or the details--something about a cave in the southwestern US--but I remember commenting on it, and somebody else did too, but Skyrider and Janadele just kinda ignored it, and so did everyone else.

I'm still amazed they're not reminding us of it every time someone asks for evidence. I don't know if it's because it's from one of those evil anti-Mormon sources they don't read (disinterested archaeologists), or evidence just isn't that important to their goals, or what.

As far back as page 10:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8878984&postcount=361

...which led me to dig up some old notebooks:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8965379&postcount=3199

Ah, yes! This kinda got buried in the ********. But it's very interesting. The original linked article ( http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=802 ) claims there were "copious samples of cultivated barley at pre-Columbian sites in Arizona". But I've lived in Arizona nearly my whole life, and I've never heard of this. Does anyone know if any attempts were made to germinate any of the grains found? Does anyone know anything more about any testing or other research being done -outside of the LDS church?

 

[bruto]

Who ever said that is a self serving jerk.

Well, he's sort of right that the improvement is temporary. It will certainly not outlast the universe.

 

[Craig4]

I do not consider there is ANY evidence that the Book of Abraham is not the word of God, nor could there be.

The "mindless repeating" is from those who continually mock and insult Holy Scripture of which they have no knowledge nor understanding.

So why are you here? Is this some meaningless and masochistic exercise in being persecuted for your beliefs?

 

[desertgal]

No dafydd, I mean nothing of the kind.

The Book of Abraham is Holy Scripture containing the word of the Lord to His Prophet Abraham.
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/Volume...ng-astronomy-and-egyptians-approach-abraham-3

IOW, made up by Smith.

 

[Empress]

So why are you here? Is this some meaningless and masochistic exercise in being persecuted for your beliefs?

Imo, that's precisely what it is. She gets to feel like she's closer to the early Mormon church members who truly were persecuted for their beliefs. Since she can't get that today, she's inventing it.

On the plus side, if, in the future, anyone who is considering joining the Mormon church does a google search and comes across this thread, I think we can safely assume they will abandon the idea. Education for the win.

 

[RandFan]

I do not consider there is ANY evidence that the Book of Abraham is not the word of God, nor could there be.

Either the Dunning-Krueger effect or simply brainwashed. Or both.

The "mindless repeating" is from those who continually mock and insult Holy Scripture of which they have no knowledge nor understanding.

What's mindless is your dismissing it out of hand.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Ah, yes! This kinda got buried in the ********. But it's very interesting. The original linked article ( http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=802 ) claims there were "copious samples of cultivated barley at pre-Columbian sites in Arizona". But I've lived in Arizona nearly my whole life, and I've never heard of this. Does anyone know if any attempts were made to germinate any of the grains found? Does anyone know anything more about any testing or other research being done -outside of the LDS church?

As I recall, the ag dept. at ASU could not get any of the seeds to sprout, indicating that it most likely was, after all, evidence of processing wild barley rather that evidence of a tame cultivar. Between that and the late date, the furor sort of just died out.

 

[RandFan]

You believe, therefore, that destroying people's faith is commendable--because that, in essence, is what you're saying.

I'm trying to destroy ignorance and superstition.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed portion germane to split thread

You suppose that you are engaged in a crusade to make the world a better place. I am not at all sure that destroying humankind's faith is a credible way to achieve that goal. Moreover, I'm virtually certain that you can't prove it.

It's a fact that secular societies are correlated with flourishing societies. With one or two exceptions the more religious a nation is the more of a hell hole that nation is. Religion is correlated with an increase in violent crime and property crime.

Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

More Poverty = More Religion | The Big Picture

Religiosity Highest in World's Poorest Nations

 

[bruto]

Opening Post of this LDS thread.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ,(an assertion that is arguable and contradicts those of many other religions) with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam,(an assertion based on arguable historical and archaeological statements, and the assumption that there was an Adam) and to our pre mortal existence. (an assertion that such an existence is true or possible)

Your original post is, in any rational reading of the post itself and the purpose of this forum, an invitation to debate its questionable assertions. None of the debate of these questionable assertions can be off topic unless you redefine the whole meaning out of the word "topic."

 

[Astreja]

'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith. Mentioned in Abraham 3.3

That wasn't My question, Janadele. Kolob cannot be both a star and a planet. Which is it?

 

[Astreja]

No. IMO it's a lot dishonest...

May I propose that every time Janadele posts an insult or argumentum ad baculum, someone immediately quote it to save it for posterity before it gets edited (and press the Report button, if warranted)?

 

[Slowvehicle]

'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith. Mentioned in Abraham 3.3

And while you are at it, please explain why, whether "Kolob" is a "star", a "planet", or an "alternate plane of existence", it would be mentioned in common Egyptian Funerary texts of the first millennium BCE...

 

[Slowvehicle]

May I propose that every time Janadele posts an insult or argumentum ad baculum, someone immediately quote it to save it for posterity before it gets edited (and press the Report button, if warranted)?

That is a wonderful idea, Goddess!

 

[Astreja]

I have another question. I see in Smith's mis-translation of the Book of Breathing, he refers repeatedly to "the idolatrous god of..."

How, exactly, can a god be "idolatrous"? What would a god need with an idol?

 

[RandFan]

So by your "lights," mocking and denigrating the religious beliefs of another qualifies as enlightened, mature "discussion." Furthermore, legitimate skeptics are fully enfranchised to do just that--right?

Humans living in a free society have the right to challenge and question institutions. Any institution. Ever hear of Martin Luther? You ought to have, he holds a high place in the Mormon mythology of reformation. Martin Luther nailed Ninety-Five Theses to the door of a Catholic Church. He did so in "protest" of the church thus sparking the reformation and according to Mormonism, the restoration.

Freedom to question the status quo and institutions is critical to a vibrant society. I do not value religious faith as it is willful ignorance. Religious faith is what lead the Jews at Masada to commit suicide. Religious faith is what lead the 9/11 hijackers to fly planes into the twin towers.

I favor freedom from those who would lie to oppress others, I favor the enlightenment which promotes humanity and truth as opposed to superstition and fairy tales.

 

[RandFan]

I have another question. I see in Smith's mis-translation of the Book of Breathing, he refers repeatedly to "the idolatrous god of..."

How, exactly, can a god be "idolatrous"? What would a god need with an idol?

I suspect he was trying to coin a new usage for the word or simply didn't understand what idolatrous meant. An idol would promote idolatry so I suppose that was what he was getting at.

Pure speculation on my part, YMMV.

 

[SezMe]

Humans living in a free society ...

In this thread, RandFan, you've been both informative and eloquent. I'm starting to form an idolatrous relationship to you. Stop it.