LDS

[Slowvehicle]

No it was not, as I have posted previously.

Wikipedia is not a credible source.

...which is why I suggested it as a starting point. Here is the problem: the only sources I have found that support the authenticity of the BoA are those cites that regard the text through the seeing-stones of faith. I was not able to find a single non-apologetics-based source that did not point out that the text of the hypocephali was not written by Abraham. nor refers in any way to Abraham, but is instead a common Egyptian funerary text. I was not able to find a single source that uses, or is even informed by, the "dictionary" created to justify the transmogrification of the "Book of Breathing" into Abraham's personal autograph. In other words, there are no "neutral" sources. There are only mormon apologetics, and what you would call "anti-mormon" sources. This, in itself, has much to say about the credibility of the BoM.

At any rate, consider the sources listed in the wiki.
Or try these:
http://mormonismdisproved.blogspot.com/2010/12/book-of-abraham-fraud-explained.html
http://mormonismdisproved.blogspot.com/2010/12/book-of-abraham-fraud-explained.html
http://www.watchman.org/lds/abraham2.htm
...or not.

Or, if you would, perhaps you might provide a neutral, scholastically rigorous source that supports authenticity.

 

[Janadele]

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

 

[Akhenaten]

I'd suggest that the bogus Book of Abraham is evidence enough of shenanigans.

49 verses consisting of 2,000 words derived from a fanciful 'translation' of less than four lines of a fragment of papyrus?

He had to know that he was making it up out of whole cloth.

Absolute rubbish. Non believers have no right, authority, knowledge or understanding to qualify them to comment on sacred matters of which they know nothing.

I have a right to comment on any subject I like, thank you very much.

Furthermore:

1. there's nothing even remotely sacred about Smith's bogus "translation". It's completely made up; and
   
   
2. I dare say I know considerably more about hieroglyphics than Smith ever did.

The Pearl of Great Price, which contains the Book of Abraham is inspired and sacred Christian Scripture.

It's a crock of ***** and the alleged Book of Abraham is the scummy crust that's formed on top of it.

 

[Slowvehicle]

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

Why do you consider your post responsive?

What alternatives do you offer? If any source that considers actual evidence becomes, to you, an "anti-mormon" site, and the only sources that claim authenticity for the BoA are mormon apologist cites, what does that say about the credibility of the supposed translation of the Book of Breathing?

If you would, be so kind as to provide a non-faith-based, non-apologetic, non-mormon, scholastically rigorous source that supports the claim that the BoA represents Abraham's autograph. Serioously--be so kind as to suggest a neutral source.

 

[Sideroxylon]

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

So if you were wrong you could never know.

But we find you "debating" on a sceptics forum. Wouldn't it make for a fruitful and honest discussion to investigate the opposing claims and their evidence in order to formulate quality responses or perhaps concede points? Wouldn't you do this even for yourself as part of building a coherent worldview?

I would because I care about the truth.

 

[Myriad]

The Pearl of Great Price, which contains the Book of Abraham is inspired and sacred Christian Scripture.

No it isn't. It is Mormon scripture. Mormons (like anyone) have the right to decide what is sacred to them. But Mormons do not decide doctrine for all Christians or for Christianity in general.

Of course you know that the vast majority of Christians in the world regard the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon not as sacred scripture but as fanciful fiction or worse (worse being things like false prophecy, blasphemy, heresy, and the work of Satan). There are good reason that you might prefer having discussions of this nature with atheists rather than with non-Mormon Christians. At least none of the atheists believe you to be in league with the devil.

If you think there's wisdom in these books, and want to personally regard them as sacred, then fine. That's up to you. But what's sacred writings to you is going to be pulp for a lot of other people, and it is unreasonable and unbecoming to expect otherwise.

It might be different if God were consistently smiting the followers of the "wrong" texts and rewarding the followers of the "right" ones. With our present worldwide communications and information systems, that would be easy to notice and figure out. But that's just not happening in the world. That's the simple truth of it. It's not happening. As I observed in another thread recently, if God is rewarding anyone for their practices in today's world, it's the rational skeptical naturalists, who are routinely (among other things) curing and preventing diseases that have plagued humanity since Biblical times. So either the atheists are right and there's actually no God at all, or God currently exhibits no perceptible concern over which book you put in a leather binding with a fancy satin bookmark.

What matters is what wisdom the book is actually giving you. For instance, does it explain that if you wouldn't agree with a Muslim or a Christian Scientist or a Pastafarian telling you that their book is sacred to you and you must treat it that way (and ask no questions about its origins, authenticity, or accuracy), then you should not expect others to agree when you do the same to them?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Akhenaten]

The Book of Abraham and the lost 116 pages are both good examples of how Smith was obviously aware of the limitations of his "powers," and hesitated to have them tested.

I don't see how this varies to any significant degree from my original statement in Post #3724 that Smith was practicing wilful deception.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

Oh by the great changer!

Here, this is how you respond to such critisism:

"Clearly Smith, when looking at the papyrus scrolls was not directly translating them, but rather direcly inspired by the Voice of God (tm) who, trough the mystical link of the scolls allowed Smith insight to the time of the egyptians. However, in the face of skeptism of his contempories and because he still had some human fallibility with which he was struggling, Smith CLAIMED to be actually translating, rather than the truth about the Voice of God (tm). This same human fallibility made him make up parts of the pictures, although of course everything dicated is still true as he was a True Prophet"

Now the whole book of abraham is still divinely inspired, he needed the papyrus scrolls AND the scroll don't actually have to say anything about abraham now we can actually read hieroglyphs. And its utterly untestable as only true believers will hear the voice of god telling them its really true. Honest guv, would I lie to you?

It's called having your cake and eating it too. Religions are good at that, you really should take some lessons in doublespeak if you want to discuss these things here.

Feel free to reuse the argument (although know it's given by a horrible athiest who thinks the whole BoM is a badly written fraud).

Praise Tzeench!

 

[Janadele]

"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken.

The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings.

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
New Era, January 1968.

Post 775

 

[Slowvehicle]

Post 775

Is this where I am supposed to say, "LOL mormon sites" and righteously dismiss your argument?

Any progress on those neutral sites?

 

[Akhenaten]

So the sacred word of god can be bought from a side show exhibitor?

NO.

Then could you be so good as to set us straight about whence came the papyrus from which Smith allegedly taranslated The Book of Abraham?

 

[Akhenaten]

Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken.

The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings.

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham.
New Era, January 1968.

What does remain, however, is Egyptian alphabet that Smith created during his translation work.

What other ancient Egyptian texts have been translated by using this alphabet?

 

[AdMan]

Post 775

Is there any hope that you'll stop preaching and engage in actual discussion?

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Is there any hope that you'll stop preaching and engage in actual discussion?

nope.

So in summary anything that isn't 'Mormonism is the greatest thing since sliced bread' is wildly anti mormon and propoganda.

Any updates on the Negro saga Janadele?

 

[Pixel42]

There are good reason that you might prefer having discussions of this nature with atheists rather than with non-Mormon Christians. At least none of the atheists believe you to be in league with the devil.

There was a proselytising thread started by a Mormon on a Doctor Who forum I belong to which had several Christian contributors; one in particular seemed genuinely concerned for the Mormon's soul, as he believed that the LDS was indeed started by Satan as a way to tempt good people into the ultimate blasphemy - believing that they could themselves become gods.

 

[abaddon]

Absolute rubbish. Non believers have no right, authority, knowledge or understanding to qualify them to comment on sacred matters of which they know nothing.

The Pearl of Great Price, which contains the Book of Abraham is inspired and sacred Christian Scripture.

Bollocks. You do not get to extract or deny basic human rights just because your potty, imaginary god says so.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Absolute rubbish. Non believers have no right, authority, knowledge or understanding to qualify them to comment on sacred matters of which they know nothing.

The Pearl of Great Price, which contains the Book of Abraham is inspired and sacred Christian Scripture.

Care to comment on the level of authority that springs from the understanding and knowledge of these three Egyptologists? You know, people who dedicate years of education and research to the study of Ancient Egyptian culture and languages.

Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."[26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations"[27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No. 3] into a king and Osiris into Abraham.”[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Controversy_and_Criticism

 

[Mashuna]

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

Hiding from the evidence does not help your position.

 

[pakeha]

Absolute rubbish. Non believers have no right, authority, knowledge or understanding to qualify them to comment on sacred matters of which they know nothing.

The Pearl of Great Price, which contains the Book of Abraham is inspired and sacred Christian Scripture.

Janadele, 'inspired'?
Do you really believe your deity inspires lies?

Many pages back I read the Book of Abraham at your sugestion.
I was shocked to see the word Egyptus was claimed, within the text, as derived from the Chaldean.
I questioned you about this obvious bloomer, remember?
All during this thread I've learned a great deal more about this disgusting fraud perpetrated by Smith.

It is terribly similar to a fraud a I helped to unmask some years back, a fraud involving 'inspired translation' from Mandarin Chinese, sexual abuse and energetic 'healing'.
I'm amazed by how similar the reactions of the Mormons here are to that of the followers of that charming scammer.
Some things never change?

What DOES change is that now we have Internet examine for ourselves any claim that's made to us.
And, thanks to to the JREF, a safe place to read the contributions of posters from all over the world and of many different points of view.

Why, Janadele, do you want to stifle discussion about the fraudulent nature of the Book of Abraham?

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

Janadele, do you really prize your faith over the truth?

 

[abaddon]

LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.

LOL all pro Mormon sites... which I would never read.