Two defect from Westboro Baptist Church

Mr. Purple, is there anything that indicates to you that she's not taking responsibility for her actions? If not, what does she have to do to give this impression?
 
Mr. Purple said:
Seriously? I am the prick?

Maybe you are right. I forgot about all of the funerals that I attended and caused suffering at.

Oh wait...
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I see your point. I guess it rests on the question of whether or not you think what she did was forgivable with just an apology. I'm not sure I disagree with you, but what would it take for her to redeem herself, or is it not possible?
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Mr. Purple, is there anything that indicates to you that she's not taking responsibility for her actions? If not, what does she have to do to give this impression?
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I don't mean to say that she has or hasn't taken responsibility. That's a "her" issue.

My issue is the quickness with which people are able to forgive. I certainly don't forgive her just because she said she is sorry. I realize that this "instant forgiveness" is part of our culture lately, but I can't get in line with that.

She did horrible things. It is great that she is sorry, but to quote my dad, sorry doesn't cut it.
 
Unabogie said:
I see your point. I guess it rests on the question of whether or not you think what she did was forgivable with just an apology. I'm not sure I disagree with you, but what would it take for her to redeem herself, or is it not possible?
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Not sure. Efforts to end the evil done by her family would be a good start (though I don't know what that would be, form a non-profit perhaps).
 
Carnivore said:
In her own words:

""We know that we can't undo our whole lives. We can't even say we'd want to if we could; we are who we are because of all the experiences that brought us to this point. What we can do is try to find a better way to live from here on. That's our focus."
"


Fair enough and well put, seems to me.
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(I snipped the quote, it didn't come through when I hit the quote function).

Sorry, I must have missed your post, Carnivore. I think I have addressed your point in other posts though.

Apology =/= Automatic Forgiveness.

Maybe I hold a grudge longer than most.
 
The idea isn't so much about any automatic forgiveness and more about congratulating her on getting the hell out of such a despicable institution. To me, she seems like something of a victim herself. Like I said, it took her longer than it should have, but I'm glad she's reached higher ground.

Out of curiosity, how else do we deal with this? Am I to wave her off and give her evil eyes for a few years before I decide that she has fully redeemed herself?
 
For the record, Nate Phelps is a (currently inactive) member here who escaped years ago.
 
I'm going to point out that neither she, nor any current or former members of the Westboro Baptist Church, broke the law. Agree with them or not, on theological or humanitarian grounds (as you will), they have the right to speak and act as they do. They have been far more aware of their legal rights than many of their opponents.

Forgiveness? Forgiveness isn't yours to give. On theological grounds, that is up to her, and their, God. On humanitarian grounds, that's entirely up to the 'victims' of what were, let me again state, totally legal protests.

Are these protests disgusting? Yes, of course they are. Were they criminal? The Supreme Court says no. So, that's really the end of the question.

Now, if she's at all culpable in civil court... that may be interesting, but my gut says no. She didn't organize or lead any protests that I can think of. Scientology aside, most people won't even try to target individual members of protests, and I'm not sure there's any grounds to do so here.

So, off you go, Megan Phelps-Roper. Be free. Fly, fly my pretty!
 
Legend said:
The idea isn't so much about any automatic forgiveness and more about congratulating her on getting the hell out of such a despicable institution. To me, she seems like something of a victim herself. Like I said, it took her longer than it should have, but I'm glad she's reached higher ground.
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I get that, and don't have issue with it, but I would also congratulate a criminal/preacher/terrorist/whatever who defects from their cause, but wouldn't forgive and forget what he had already done immediately.

Out of curiosity, how else do we deal with this? Am I to wave her off and give her evil eyes for a few years before I decide that she has fully redeemed herself?
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My reaction would be closer to this than your (OP) reaction. I understand you interpreting her defection as a "win", and I would agree, but it doesn't make everything OK.
 
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NightStar76 said:
I'm going to point out that neither she, nor any current or former members of the Westboro Baptist Church, broke the law. Agree with them or not, on theological or humanitarian grounds (as you will), they have the right to speak and act as they do. They have been far more aware of their legal rights than many of their opponents.
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Correct. They exercised their right to free speech/assembly. They have to bear the consequences of that speech though.

Forgiveness? Forgiveness isn't yours to give. On theological grounds, that is up to her, and their, God. On humanitarian grounds, that's entirely up to the 'victims' of what were, let me again state, totally legal protests.
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I disagree. I see these as offences against compassionate, civilized society. And let me state again, just because something is legal doesn't mean there aren't victims.

Are these protests disgusting? Yes, of course they are. Were they criminal? The Supreme Court says no. So, that's really the end of the question.
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Never said she should go to jail.


Look, I didn't mean to take over the thread. I think I have said all I care to on the subject, and appreciate the thoughts of, and discussion from, everyone.
 
I do catch your drift, Mr Purple. You're not taking over the thread, so worry not. I was expecting this discussion, actually, and it's a good one.

For me, it comes down to the fact that she's still pretty darn young. She is 27, but that to me is only just coming into actual adulthood. This was her way of life and it was instilled in her as sacrosanct every single day and the fact that she wants to reform is pretty special. The ultimate forgiveness, of course, really the only forgiveness that matters, must come from those who were hurt by her actions, as NightStar points out.
 
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Mr. Purple said:
Maybe I am missing something, I don't follow the WBC in great detail. I hold her responsible for the actions she committed as an adult.

Why on earth wouldn't we? She had crazy parents? Well that line starts five million miles away to the left...

Again, for the record: good for her taking a step in the right direction, but for me there is no amnesty here.
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You seem profoundly ignorant of human psychology. Incidentally, that grudge you hold against these people does nothing to undo or mitigate what they did either. Nor does it bring any comfort to those who they've hurt.
 
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joesixpack said:
You seem profoundly ignorant of human psychology.
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Fine, I'll bite. What exactly am I "profoundly ignorant" about? That people can be effected by their parents? At a point, (I would say 27 is hell and gone from that point) we have to hold people accountable for their actions.

Maybe we disagree about holding people with crazy parents accountable for their actions, but I fail to see how this makes me "profoundly ignorant".

Incidentally, that grudge you hold against these people does nothing to undo or mitigate what they did either. Nor does it bring any comfort to those who they've hurt.
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And welcoming the offenders with open arms brings them comfort?
 
How is it anyone can be so certain that she has taken part in 'offending'? Doesn't have to be everyone in the family getting involved, most of their protests have been a handful of people (or one) with signs. Maybe she has jack-all to be sorry for?
 
And maybe she hated herself the whole time and thought the family's actions were wrong but was too scared and shamed to speak up. From what I know of cults, they don't take any sass very well, and indeed mete out punishment.

She was part of something nasty she'd been raised in, and found a way to the rest of us on her own understanding of what right and wrong are, and I'll just tip my hat in respect I guess.
 
Megalodon said:
She didn't do anything illegal, so there's nothing she has to answer for, in this world or any putative other .
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You know you can be a total douchbag while not doing anything illegal right?
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
How is it anyone can be so certain that she has taken part in 'offending'? Doesn't have to be everyone in the family getting involved, most of their protests have been a handful of people (or one) with signs. Maybe she has jack-all to be sorry for?
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We've seen plenty of interviews and documentaries to see who does what.
 
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