LDS

[RandFan]

How can it be said to be "translated"? Joseph Smith said he stuck his head in a hat, looked at some stones and words appeared to him. The plates were not even needed.

Some early-nineteenth-century Americans used seer stones in attempts to gain revelations from God or to find buried treasure.[3] Beginning in the early 1820s, Joseph Smith was paid to act as a "seer" in attempts to locate lost items and find precious metals hidden in the earth.[4] Smith's procedure was to place the stone in a white stovepipe hat, put his face over the hat to block the light, and then "see" the necessary information in the stone's reflections.[5][6] Smith had at least two seer stones, including a white stone that he found in about 1819, and a chocolate-colored stone that he found in 1822, both of which he used for treasure hunting.[7][8][9] His favored stone, chocolate-colored and about the size of an egg, was found in a deep well he helped dig for one of his neighbors. In 1827 Smith said he obtained the "Urim and Thummim" which was composed of two white stones, different from the previous two.[10]

 

[The Norseman]

Some of the questions you have been asking suggests you don't have kids. I am not stating you don't, just that some of these are things that I recognize as a parent.

For instance, when my kids have done something I've told them not to do and I know it, I ask them anyway to give them a chance to 1) come clean and show me they won't try to deceive me about it, and 2) explain their actions.

And how many times have I pretended that the kids were "hiding" from me when I could see then. "Where are youuuuu? Come out, come out wherever you are?" Of course, I wasn't planning on inflicting mortality on them when I found them...usually just tickling, so that doesn't really apply to this situation. Maybe god was just being sarcastic. "Oh boy, Adam is hiding behind that bush and his feet are sticking out. He's got a lot to learn. Alright. 'ADAM, WHERE ART THOU?'"

On the tree of life, I just figured that it was something you had to eat from all of the time, not a one-time-and-you-are-immortal type thing. With that, it made sense that restricting them from the tree of life did condemn them to die. And satan did lie to them because he said they wouldn't. Yes, he also told them some truths. That's how the story goes, he mixes lies and truths together. No different than most people.

There are consequences, and in this fairy tale, god laid out the consequences for disobedience and still left the cookie jar within reach. As a parent, I do let my kids fail sometimes. It teaches them that there can be consequences for actions. I'm hoping they'll learn the lessons with small consequences before they learn it with large consequences. Like if you leave your quarter lying around, it might disappear. Then if my child loses the quarter, the lesson is learned early on and only lost a quarter instead of leaving a 20 dollar bill lying around and losing it.

So, at least this part of the fairy tale is actually consistent with what parents would do.

I think that a common mistake with this sort of reading of history is that we're not only separated through time but also through culture. Two thousand years ago, I doubt very much that the ideas and interactions of parents and their children were even close to being the same that you can make this kind of comparison.

You're taking what was said and making up stuff to try and figure out why it was said in that way. Heck, it's sometimes hard enough trying to figure out contemporary societies and cultures now.

 

[Jomante]

And when your children fail you curse them and throw them out of the house, right?

No, consequences of failure are usually sufficient by themselves. And if I tell my kids a specific consequence for an action and they do the action, I do follow through on the consequence. Children have to learn the hard way some times.

 

[Jomante]

Well, I chucked that claim right out the door since I actually have two kids, and that relation of experience made me believe Jomante is not a parent. I have two wee girlies ages 7 and 10. I enjoy very much the diverse and wild conversions we have. I would never engage in the deceptive behaviour Jomante suggests. I am always meticulously honest in everything I discuss with them.

Jomante seems to think, lying to your children is a good thing.

If I stated that lying to your children was a good thing, I'd like to see that quoted as that was not my intent. Nor was I trying to say we should deceive our children. And I most certainly am a parent of 4, two of them teenagers, all of them good kids.

 

[Jomante]

I think that a common mistake with this sort of reading of history is that we're not only separated through time but also through culture. Two thousand years ago, I doubt very much that the ideas and interactions of parents and their children were even close to being the same that you can make this kind of comparison.

You're taking what was said and making up stuff to try and figure out why it was said in that way. Heck, it's sometimes hard enough trying to figure out contemporary societies and cultures now.

You have a valid point, that when the story was originally written there wasn't the kind of culture we have today. Kids had to grow up faster, which means they had to learn the hard lessons of life faster to survive. So did the parents not try to teach the kids actions/consequences?

BTW, I'm totally a fan of that avatar. I like it the best of the skeptical cat memes that I've seen and your avatar made me chase down a full size version just so I could hang it on my wall.

 

[tsig]

The Hero's Journey. Lucifer exists for the same reason Lex Luther exists. The protagonist needs a credible antagonist.

FWIW: The character we know today as Lucifer is a compilation of characters that long predates Judaism.

History of the Devil, Satan Or Lucifer

God needs Satan for the same reason that Superman needs Kryptonite.

Dramatic tension.

 

[tsig]

Not so. He has provided The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants... Scriptures which have no translation errors.

PGP and D&C were direct revelations, no translation involved.

How was Jesus teachings lost for 1800 years?

 

[Rincewind]

Time in the Garden of Eden was eternal time... "a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. "

Our earth time of a thousand years is but a day in the Lords time.

Ah, yes... my alarm clock did the same thing to me when the battery ran out.

20 minutes on the clock was around 18 hours in the real world...

There you go God, get yourself some new batteries.

 

[tsig]

Ah, yes... my alarm clock did the same thing to me when the battery ran out.

20 minutes on the clock was around 18 hours in the real world...

There you go God, get yourself some new batteries.

If a thousand years is as a day why didn't god say "a thousand years" it's almost as if humans were changing what god said.

 

[Pixel42]

As previously noted, Lucifer (Satan, the Devil ) and his pre-mortal followers are all Spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, as are we.

When banished from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve entered the world of mortality where time was reckoned as of our earth time. While within the Garden of Eden the reckoning of time was as the Lord's time, or "eternal" time.

It is sad but true that Lucifer is "a son of the Morning" in other words one of our Heavenly Fathers elder sons. Jesus was the first born Spiritual child, and had progressed to Godhood even whilst still a Spiritual being without a resurrected immortal body. Adam, who was Michael in our pre-mortal existance, was younger than Lucifer but had also progressed further than him. Lucifer wanted more power and glory and envied Jesus and Adam. He was furious when Heavenly Father rejected his proposals and accepted Jesus and Adam and the Plan of Salvation they offered for our Heavenly Father's Spirit children. This envy and jealousy led to the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers against Heavenly Father, Jesus and their followers. We won and were rewarded with having the choice to obtain mortal bodies while Lucifer and his followers lost and were cast down to earth with no hope of progression. Instead they will continue to regress until their Spiritual bodies are no longer and they are back as in the begining as an Intelligence only. Frustrated and angry they do all they can to try to destroy our chances of further progression.

Dragon Lady: Time is the subject, not ones mortal lifetime. When we return from whence we came it will be as if we had been away for just a few moments, instead of having experienced a lifetime of mortality. A day of time in our Pre Mortal existance equated to one thousand years on earth.

Why do you keep posting the drivel made up by a fantasist as if it was established fact?

 

[JoeMorgue]

The Hero's Journey. Lucifer exists for the same reason Lex Luther exists. The protagonist needs a credible antagonist.

FWIW: The character we know today as Lucifer is a compilation of characters that long predates Judaism.

History of the Devil, Satan Or Lucifer

And it's even funnier that the modern image of Satan, that of an all evil anti-God... is really an invent of the popular culture. There's more Dante and Milton in the modern concept of Satan then anything in the Bible. He's the Boba Fett of the Bible. Barely in the original work, for some reason really popular in the Extended Universe.

As Bob Chipman said in his review of the film Devil

If you read the actual Bible... Satan's barely in it. And other then some big bad stuff at the beginning and some big bad stuff at the end he's basically a snarky minion that got busted down to VP of discipline management and is lashing out by causing mischief on Earth like a glib, middle management Loki. He's not exactly Lex Luthor. He's not even Vegeta. He's Starscream.

And that's even without bringing up that nothing in the Bible really identifies the Serpent that tempts Eve in the Garden of Eden to be Satan. For some reason it's just become accepted Fandom that they are the same character.

It really does seem like the minor throwaway character of some cynical fallen angel has been really inflated and elevated to some Arch-Nemesis to God to explain away why the all powerful, all knowing, all caring God keeps making mistakes and doing evil things.

And even as a copout it really doesn't work.

 

[pakeha]

Not so. He has provided The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants... Scriptures which have no translation errors.

Janadele.
We all know the Book of Abraham is not remotely like anything except a scam.
Why continue to post up your belief in a lie?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

The reference is to those who choose evil.

Evil like choosing to follow a racist doctrine?

 

[zooterkin]

It is not until the end of the Millennium that Lucifer and his followers will be cast to outer darkness. They are here on this earth as persons of Spirit without a mortal body.

Well, it's been two millennia since Jesus is supposed to have been alive. Did we miss the fun?

 

[Craig4]

Not so. He has provided The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants... Scriptures which have no translation errors.

Um, yeah there are. The whole "Pearl of Overprice" is a completely fraudulent document that has no textual similarities with the autograph (original Egyptian document).

Even if the other scriptures were accurately translated which they contain more than enough factual errors. For instances Smith completely screws the pooch on the entire anthropology of pre-Colombian peoples of the Americas. I mean totally. He get's it so wrong one wonders if it was a joke.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Not so. He has provided The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants... Scriptures which have no translation errors.

Of course not. When someone makes something up out of whole cloth it indeed will not contain translation errors.

Harry Potter in english also contains no translation errors.
Nor does the Lord of the Rings.
Or Atlas Shrugged
Or any original work.

Does that make them all equally true?

 

[deaman]

I know it's hard Janadele, but it is true. The whole religious/god thing is just a very human, bunch of made up stories, by people who want the power of (seemingly) controlling things.

 

[tsig]

I've started threads on torture. First off if you read your thread you will find that those who were willing to torture were talking about exigent circumstances. They are torturing someone to save an innocent person. Most of us have had it drilled into us since were kids that killing is not per se wrong if it is to save another. In my hypothetical there is only innocent people to be tortured. Second, that isn't even close to a scientific study. It has little meaning as there are no controls.

You ask as if there has been no moral progress whatsoever. There actually has been. Steven Pinker chronicles the ever decreasing violence in society. Violence is decreasing because our values and attitudes are changing.

Fair enough but watch the Pinker video in any event.

I'm rather skeptical that violence has declined but I placed "The Better Angels of Our Nature" on request at the library.

(I don't usually watch videos on the internet, takes too much time and often something in the video causes a hangup.)

 

[dudalb]

Let's face it,arguing with a true believer is like this:

 

[RandFan]

I'm rather skeptical that violence has declined but I placed "The Better Angels of Our Nature" on request at the library.

(I don't usually watch videos on the internet, takes too much time and often something in the video causes a hangup.)

Cool.