LDS

[Craig4]

And about Brigham Young, was he god's prophet? If so why did god let Young say ugly racist things?

Yes, and why did god stand by and let Smith and do so many ugly things to the wives and daughters of their followers? Why did Smith require the services of an abortionist for his victims so often?

 

[Akhenaten]

These are my own words, as previously also.

That they aren't actually saying anything is the big giveaway.

You may think as you please, as may I.

Yes and no.

 

[AdMan]

You may think as you please, as may I.

Perhaps you may, but so far you have not demonstrated that you have the least capacity to think for yourself. You have so far simply regurgitated LDS dogma (when you haven't been spouting hollow-earth nonsense, and if that is an example of thinking for yourself you need to keep working on it).

 

[skyrider44]

We agree.

Yes, you did, but has the Church formally said Young goofed? I see change in policy, but not an actual admission Brigham Young got it wrong.

Actions speak louder than words.

If the current LDS Prophet is fallible, how is he to be distinguished from a false prophet? The Bible is clear on how false prophets are to be identified and treated. What distinguishes Brigham Young from being a false prophet?

Organizing and directing the movement West, in which he founded Salt Lake City and numerous cities/towns throughout the state, was not the work of a false prophet.

: If the current LDS Prophet is fallible, why should his proclamations be accepted as the word of God, only to be overturned by some future LDS Prophet?

Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time. As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static? No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

 

[skyrider44]

Yes, and why did god stand by and let Smith and do so many ugly things to the wives and daughters of their followers? Why did Smith require the services of an abortionist for his victims so often?

What is your source for the last sentence?

 

[tsig]

Jesus Christ directs His Church through His living Prophet... today, yesterday and tomorrow.

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod...e-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints

Even when the prophet gets it wrong, right?

 

[tsig]

These are my own words, as previously also. You may think as you please, as may I.

Yes you may but do you?

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

If the current LDS Prophet is fallible, why should his proclamations be accepted as the word of God, only to be overturned by some future LDS Prophet?

Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time. As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static? No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

With God, all things are possible - Matt 19:26

 

[Foster Zygote]

Organizing and directing the movement West, in which he founded Salt Lake City and numerous cities/towns throughout the state, was not the work of a false prophet.

What about Mohamed? If success in establishing a religion and attracting followers is a confirmation of the veracity of a prophet's claims, then we would have to conclude that Mohamed is a far more legitimate candidate for True Prophet™ status than Brigham Young. For that matter, the worldwide spread of Scientology would have to add legitimacy to L. Ron Hubbard's claims.

Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time. As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static? No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

So which is it? Is the prophet a reliable source of the Word of God® because he is consistently right, or are his proclamations only valid until they become anachronistic or politically cumbersome? Why would the word of Almighty God be subject to correction?

 

[Craig4]

Actions speak louder than words.



snip

Which is why it's odd people followed Smith or Young. They were such low people of the basest sort. Their sexual activities were really beyond despicable. I wonder if learning the truth about the human cesspools that started the Mormon "religion" is why the church is losing so many members. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with an organization started by such vile people.

 

[Craig4]

What is your source for the last sentence?

Sarah Marinda Bates Pratt, upon learning of the perversions of the church founders became a self described Mormon apostate. She left Orson Pratt and the "church" in disgust upon learning of the use by Young of a doctor to perform abortions of girls he'd impregnated.

You can read all about the activities of your "prophets" here. Knowing about their tendency toward pedophilia it's certainly no stretch to believe that they would need an abortionist to help cover up their crimes.

http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1886WWyl.htm#pg061a

 

[jsfisher]

Actions speak louder than words.

Yes, the certainly do in this case, but perhaps not the way you want to imply. The Church threw a doctrine into full reverse but would prefer to just forget it was ever otherwise. That is the act of a cover-up, not an evolving ethic.

Organizing and directing the movement West, in which he founded Salt Lake City and numerous cities/towns throughout the state, was not the work of a false prophet.

Incredulity is not evidence.

Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time. As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static? No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

False prophets are permitted to be right; true prophets are not permitted to be wrong. {ETA: What are these time after time right proclamations of which you speak, by the way?} And it matters not whether the world is static; it is not the world that is at issue here; it is divine proclamation. And didn't Brigham Young use words like 'never' in establishing his racist dictum?

What you have described is a fickle God who rules by fiat through a spokesman with unreliable recitation skills. That does not make for a reasonable foundation for a religion.

 

[Pup]

Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time. As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static? No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

That seems an oddly pragmatic view of religion. The Shakers, for example, who flourished about the same time as the LDS church, have all but died out, because they chose not to give in to the pressure of the world.

They took the opposite tack, requiring celibacy for all members rather than encouraging reproduction, and when religious groups could no longer legally adopt children, their main source of new recruits dried up. There were three members left, as of a couple years ago.

But still, they didn't compromise. As one of the current members said in the interview linked above: "So we are celibate because Christ was celibate. We live in community because Christ and his disciples lived in community. We’re pacifists because Christ was a pacifist."

The Shakers have chosen to let their religion die out, if that's its fate, rather than to change it to fit the world.

I don't see why that's any less a sign that they're the one true religion than the LDS church, which has adapted itself to be popular. I don't think either is actually getting instructions from God, of course, but I don't see that being adaptable is necessarily a sign of a good religion, or even required of a religion.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Actions speak louder than words.

What objective criteria can be used to determine whether a person is a true prophet or a false prophet?

Organizing and directing the movement West, in which he founded Salt Lake City and numerous cities/towns throughout the state, was not the work of a false prophet.

So one criteria to be deemed a true prophet is founding a town or a city?

Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time.

Wouldn't a true prophet's proclamations always turn out to be right? You've said that he goofed.

As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static?

No, the assumption is that a god's views on racism would be static, not follow the conventions of the worldly times.

No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

Maybe it shouldn't.

 

[skyrider44]

Even when the prophet gets it wrong, right?

Peter got it wrong several times, yet he labored directly under the counsel of Jesus Christ.

 

[skyrider44]

What objective criteria can be used to determine whether a person is a true prophet or a false prophet?

The quality of the harvest his labors produce.

: So one criteria to be deemed a true prophet is founding a town or a city?

BY didn't found "a" town or "a" city (I think you know that). Not so incidentally, he led the largest migration in U. S. history to a place no one else wanted (The American Journey, "A Haven in the Desert," p. 379).

: Wouldn't a true prophet's proclamations always turn out to be right? You've said that he goofed.

You buy into the fiction that LDS prophets and leaders are infallible; they are not. Joseph Smith himself admitted to having made mistakes.

: No, the assumption is that a god's views on racism would be static, not follow the conventions of the worldly times.

Are you bestowing godhood on Brigham Young?

 

[Empress]

Are you bestowing godhood on Brigham Young?

No, we're exploring the godhood of your god. Why didn't your god smite Young good and proper when he spouted his racist bs, if your god didn't approve it?

 

[tsig]

Actions speak louder than words.



Organizing and directing the movement West, in which he founded Salt Lake City and numerous cities/towns throughout the state, was not the work of a false prophet.



Because his proclamations turn out to be right time after time after time. As for past proclamations being overturned by future prophets, is it your assumption that the world is static? No institution can survive if it is unwilling to change in a dynamic environment.

What good is a church that bends and sways with popular opinion and doesn't stand foursquare for eternal non changing truth.

Might as well convert to Episcopalian.

 

[skyrider44]

That seems an oddly pragmatic view of religion. The Shakers, for example, who flourished about the same time as the LDS church, have all but died out, because they chose not to give in to the pressure of the world.

There is nothing "oddly pragmatic" about it. Darwin's discoveries proved that.

: They took the opposite tack, requiring celibacy for all members rather than encouraging reproduction, and when religious groups could no longer legally adopt children, their main source of new recruits dried up.

It's considerate of you to prove my point.

: But still, they didn't compromise. As one of the current members said in the interview linked above: "So we are celibate because Christ was celibate. We live in community because Christ and his disciples lived in community. We’re pacifists because Christ was a pacifist."

This is the 21st century.

: The Shakers have chosen to let their religion die out, if that's its fate, rather than to change it to fit the world.

Of what value is a non-existent religion in doing God's work on earth?

: I don't see why that's any less a sign that they're the one true religion than the LDS church, which has adapted itself to be popular.

Do you think (to cite just one example), it's "popular" to require members to pay 10% of their annual increase to the Church?

: I don't think either is actually getting instructions from God, of course, but I don't see that being adaptable is necessarily a sign of a good religion, or even required of a religion.

Believe what you will.

 

[tsig]

Peter got it wrong several times, yet he labored directly under the counsel of Jesus Christ.

How do you know when a prophet has it wrong?