LDS

[Slowvehicle]

The personal opinions of ex members, or of current members, is not the topic of this thread.

No one has the right to hold the Priesthood of God, it is a privilege, authority and responsibility bestowed by Him at His own time upon those He chooses.

...which is, in fact, your opinion ...

...and which does not, in fact, answer my questions, variously phrased above.

As a recap, you claim that it is a valid LDS D&C that the "responsibility of the priesthood" was validly withheld from people of "African descent". Further, LDS documents, including the BoM repeatedly use the term "black skin" to describe the same people. Even further, you claim that there is a difference between "people of Negro descent", "people of African descent", and "people with black skin".

Since this is the heart of one of the claims you have made about an LDS doctrine, I ask you please to explain: How is one to distinguish among "people of African descent" (especially given that all humans originated in Africa); "people of Negro descent" (especially given that "Negro" describes neither a cohesive genetic group nor a cohesive ethnicity, but is instead a heterogeneous melange of more or less dark-skinned people); and "people with black skin" (particularly given that no humans have "black" skin--human skin colors range from very pale pink to very dark brown)? I would truly appreciate it if you would engage, and actually address this issue, which is on-topic for the OP.

I would also appreciate it if, since you say that "of course" you beleive that "Eve" and "Adam" were real people, you would explain when, in your opinion,the "Eve" and "Adam" of this universe lived (and, for that matter, where they lived).

I would, in addition, appreciate it if you would say when, in your opinion, the punitive global flood happened in this universe.

As long as I am asking, I would point out that since you accused many on this thread of violating "International Internet Law", it would be helpful if you would provide a link to, or a source for, the "International Internet Law" to which you are referring.

...if you would be so kind...

ETA: is it just because I don't add smileys that you ignore my questions? Here:

 

[Empress]

Or just hates bad press and political incorrectness.

Take the FLDS. Does the LDS Church endeavor to distance themselves from the FLDS and Warren Jeffs simply because of the polygamy issue...or mainly because of the notoriety and bad press the FLDS has received? I tend to think it's the latter, and that if society at large hadn't turned a cold shoulder towards polygamy, the LDS Church would still be practicing it.

Same with the issue of blacks in the priesthood. It's not without logic to wonder if the "vision" received by the "prophet" may have included a legal action based on discrimination and brought against the church.

Agreed. The only reason they got rid of polygamy was because Utah wanted Statehood, and the US was not going to allow Utah Territory to become a state while polygamy was practiced (openly). Here is Woodruff's Manifesto ending polygamy. Not exactly a condemnation of the practice; more an acknowledgement that it was outlawed by the US, and the laws were upheld by the SC.

LDS embraced racial equality later than most religions, and was under political pressure to do so. Suddenly WHAMMO!! A revelation!!

I believe that eventually women will hold the Priesthood in the church, as well.

 

[Craig4]

The personal opinions of ex members, or of current members, is not the topic of this thread.

snip

How do you figure? Former LDS member talking about LDS would seem to fit nicely in the rather broad topic of "LDS".

 

[Craig4]

Unfortunately, as from the beginning, there are enemies within the Church, as without.

Well, if the whole world is out to get you, it's probably onto something. The problem may not be with the whole world.

 

[SezMe]

If the Bible is correct only so far as it's translated correctly, does that mean that there's an existing perfectly correct Bible in Greek and/or Hebrew?

Just a side note that most Muslims believe that the Koran cannot be translated from Arabic.

 

[Janadele]

...if you would be so kind...

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

 

[Shiner]

That sounds a little like an admission that you don't know the definition. Nice dodge.

_______________________________________________________________________


Thanks Pup, Empress, Randfan and Cat Tale, for your contributions and clarifications.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

When you can't make sense of the dogma either there is always the inscrutability play.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Please expain.

I'll trade you, my explanation for yours about negros.

 

[ria_rokz]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

Whoever was first to mention the "I know 'em when I see 'em" wins the golden calf this round.

 

[John Jones]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

Non-responsive.
IIRC, the question was how do you identify 'negroes', not how to identify worthy male ones.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

...which does not even begin to answer the question.

If your answer to questions about LDS D&Cs is going to be, "you don't need to know that", why pretend that this thread has a purpose?

If you do not know, say so.

If the answer is, like pornography, that you "know a person of 'Negro descent' when you see one", say so.

If the answer is that I am not, in your opinion, worthy to be vouchsafed the criteria, say so.

Your answer assumes my complicity in assumptions I do not support.

Your answer demonstrates a willingness to blindly follow that I do not share.

Since you have no useful answer to that question, perhaps you might deign to answer the other three?

When, in your opinion, did the "Eve", and "Adam", of this universe live, and where was their garden located?

When, in your opinion did the punitive global flood in this universe take place?

Where might the "International Internet Laws", which you accused many here of violating, be found?

 

[pakeha]

I've been AFK for several days and am catching up with the thread.
First off:

...Thanks Pup, Empress, Randfan and Cat Tale, for your contributions and clarifications.

I agree absolutely.
This thread has been a real learning experience for me.
Back to catching up.

 

[Craig4]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

So what you're saying is that Young was a bigot who thought mixing blacks and whites would not be palatable to people of that time. When being a racist organization became an impediment to recruitment in the 1970s the church decided to change. I would not feel bad about this. All religions change their absolute morality as views and values evolve. It's one of several ways we know they are all made up by men with no supernatural input.

 

[Empress]

When the Book of Mormon is translated into another language, does it have a disclaimer that it's now only the word of God so far as it's translated correctly? Or is a Spanish-language Book of Mormon, for example, considered to be a divinely inspired translation too?

If the Bible is correct only so far as it's translated correctly, does that mean that there's an existing perfectly correct Bible in Greek and/or Hebrew?

Forgot to post this last night, but I asked my mother (she has a Spanish BoM) and she says it's just as infallible in another language as it is in English. So I suppose any errors are going to be printers' errors again, using their get-out-of-jail-free card.

As for the perfect Bible, I think the answer is that there is no extant perfect bible here on earth, which is why we need prophets with a direct line to god. Odd how god never shows any supernatural knowledge that might help us, but god has always been a rather quirky fellow.

 

[RandFan]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

Janadele, the plain and simple truth is that if a person had black skin that person couldn't hold the priesthood. That's a fact. I've posted the relevant scriptures and quotes from 3 different prophets, all say "black" or "black skin".

You are being dishonest. Some Mormons call this "lying for the lord".

 

[RandFan]

That sounds a little like an admission that you don't know the definition. Nice dodge.

_______________________________________________________________________


Thanks Pup, Empress, Randfan and Cat Tale, for your contributions and clarifications.

Glad to help.

 

[Janadele]

Janadele, the plain and simple truth is that if a person had black skin that person couldn't hold the priesthood. That's a fact. I've posted the relevant scriptures and quotes from 3 different prophets, all say "black" or "black skin". /QUOTE]

That is absolute nonsense.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

We're not asking you to identify "worthy males of negro descent". We're asking you to define the word "negro". All you've told us is that negroes come from Africa, but that not all Africans are negroes. I can tell you what makes a person French, Kyrgyz, or even African. What makes a person a negro?

 

[bruto]

Slowvehicle, there is no need nor requirement for you (nor others ) to be able to identify worthy males of Negro descent. At relevant times in the past, the Lord's representatives were guided to be able do so, as required.

So basically, it all comes down to "don't know and don't care."