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I once found a BOM at work. I took it home and thumbed through it and said nope this didn't happen. The library is close to my house and I often went there to read. I deliberately left the book there.

Some people burn their copy but I'm not a nazi.
 
The witnesses couldn't see the plates but they knew how heavy the plates were, therefore: "So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds. We summarily reject the critics' arguments that the plates must have weighed 200 pounds."

That's some skepticism and critical thinking.

Joe: I have a full grown elephant that weighs 50 pounds.
Bob: That's not possible.
Tim: Here is a pillow case with a full grown elephant in it.
Bob: Wow, you are right, it is about 50 pounds.
:rolleyes:

Edited to add: Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

Yes; I just read through that part again myself.

Sad thing to me about so much of this is that it's so easy to fall prey to. As a child, I bought into Christianity at the same time my father did, but not because he did. I just really bought the whole idea. I guess...maybe...I just wanted a light at the end of the tunnel? But even then, in my deepest, most secret heart, I couldn't reconcile what I so fervently wanted to believe with the facts that I could see around me. I wanted to believe...I prayed, I begged, I pleaded...but...some tiny whisper always said "that cannot be" or "now why would that be?" or simply "huh?".

I am not anti-religion. Any religion. I understand that people need to believe -hell, I admit I do. Religions that are fleecing people of their lives, their reason, and their money too make me sad and angry. But...I still have a need to look, to see, to try to understand, to try to make it 'work' within the framework of my reality and my experience. :(
 
Joe: I have a full grown elephant that weighs 50 pounds.
Bob: That's not possible.
Tim: Here is a pillow case with a full grown elephant in it.
Bob: Wow, you are right, it is about 50 pounds.

Hey, can't you tell a miracle when you see one?
 
Yeah. . . . I imagine you're not unfamiliar with the common english useage "X may have had (property Y) but it also had (property Z)".
You imagine correctly.



The "shifting ground" fallacy is operative here. The structure of the sentence did not accommodate the dualism you describe in your first paragraph. The writer's intent was to cast doubt on the religious faith of the scientists I listed, not to admit to an alternate possibility. Even if I were to accept your "common English usage" point with respect to the post in question, why would anyone make a less-than-forthright statement about the religiosity of the scientists I listed (assuming he/she had at least a cursory knowledge of their biographies)?



Indeed it is; however, it didn't function in the sentence posted.



That leaves me something less than heartbroken.



Why do you suppose I'm interested in winning converts?

Why else would you be here? You're not answering any questions about the LDS
 
I started this thread to answer off topic questions which were being asked in another thread. The purpose of this thread was to present and discuss the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,

When are you going to start?
 
This may come as a shock, but there weren't any plates. Smith made it all up.

Well, that's an interesting topic in itself. There were several people who claimed he had something physical. I'm tempted to think he actually did keep something covered in the house, because it's odd that so many people would describe them as physically existing. His wife complained he kept them on the table and she had to keep moving them out of the way to get her work done--a detail that cracks me up. She's also behind the church prohibition on tobacco, after she complained about cleaning the spittoons and around the spittoons, when church members would come visit. You know what they say, behind every great man... :)

So then the question comes, where does a farm boy get something that feels enough like metallic plates to pass for that, when felt under wraps or seen from a short distance? He apparently didn't need to get the whole set, since a couple people claimed things like: "A large portion of the leaves were so securely bound together that it was impossible to separate them." (see the previous link I posted for sources). So there could be a few leaves and the rest a solid block of wood, and that would also explain the lighter weight.

Martin Harris may have guessed it: "Of the thickness of plates of tin," though Orson Pratt said they were "Not quite as thick as common tin" and others said they were thinner, more like parchment.

Tin plates would be fairly available, since any small-town tinner would buy tin in flat sheets for making up into cups, pans, etc.

Another not-quite-so-available but even better option would be copper printing plates. Go here http://www.coinnews.net/2010/07/28/...ered-in-heritage-boston-ana-currency-auction/ to see a late 18th century example.

There was a printer in Palmyra New York where Smith lived, the same one who would later print the Book of Mormon, so it's possible for copper plates to be in the area, though I don't know what techniques the print shop used and if there actually were any.

Imagine a young man who wanted to find an ancient gold book, stumbling across a few discarded plates like that, with their strange backward writing. A little work with a needle or small nail, and you could have columns of reformed Egyptian. The problem is, at .08 inches, I don't think they'd flex like parchment--anyone handled them? But they'd be in the range of tin's thickness. And the whole book wouldn't necessarily need to be the same thing--enough copper sheets, plus tin sheets or even heavy leather for filler, with a sealed portion of wood...
 
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I'm glad to see that Janadele has abandoned this thread. It's a real tar baby for the faithful. I was going to add a nasty comment or two about those picking up the gauntlet but will not bother. Whatever.
 
This thread makes me intensely sad for jadanelle, et al. I am grateful to RandFan and others who do their best to be informative and try to have constructive dialogue. I made it through about 14 pages and could not take any more of the horribly immoral doctrines combined with an absolute unwillingness to look at any evidence that speaks against firmly held beliefs.

Boyd K. Packer is quoted as saying "Some things that are true are not very useful." That ties in conveniently with jadanelle's knowing because the BOM says so. Heads I win, tails you lose. Dismiss any evidence as coming from anti-Mormon people and/or the devil. Very, very sad.
 
This thread makes me intensely sad for jadanelle, et al. I am grateful to RandFan and others who do their best to be informative and try to have constructive dialogue. I made it through about 14 pages and could not take any more of the horribly immoral doctrines combined with an absolute unwillingness to look at any evidence that speaks against firmly held beliefs.

Boyd K. Packer is quoted as saying "Some things that are true are not very useful." That ties in conveniently with jadanelle's knowing because the BOM says so. Heads I win, tails you lose. Dismiss any evidence as coming from anti-Mormon people and/or the devil. Very, very sad.


Who knows. Maybe Janadele will hang around the forums for a while and get involved in a few PeaceCrusader threads. She could find an Aha! moment in there for herself if she ever bothers to look in a mirror.
 
This thread makes me intensely sad for jadanelle, et al. I am grateful to RandFan and others who do their best to be informative and try to have constructive dialogue. I made it through about 14 pages and could not take any more of the horribly immoral doctrines combined with an absolute unwillingness to look at any evidence that speaks against firmly held beliefs.

Boyd K. Packer is quoted as saying "Some things that are true are not very useful." That ties in conveniently with jadanelle's knowing because the BOM says so. Heads I win, tails you lose. Dismiss any evidence as coming from anti-Mormon people and/or the devil. Very, very sad.
I was on my mission when he said this. I remember it very well. I think Plato had it right, "Truth is its own reward".
 
I'm glad to see that Janadele has abandoned this thread. It's a real tar baby for the faithful. I was going to add a nasty comment or two about those picking up the gauntlet but will not bother. Whatever.

A tar baby made out of awkward questions.
 
So.
Skyrider, since you're answering questions, how do Mormons explain why the Book of Abraham gives a false origin for the word Egyptus?
 
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