LDS

[sackett]

And then there was the Lucy Harris episode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Harris

Martin Harris's wife Lucy sounds like a rather heavily tried woman, as she watched her doofus hubby -- I'm sorry, her husband the Witness -- lose the farm through being gulled by J. Smith -- dammit, there I go again; I mean, through his sacred devotion to The Prophet and to the Great Work of printing the B of M.

Damn convenient, the way the angel told Joe not to try to recreate those 116 pages. Skyrider and Janadele: Can you tell us about it?

 

[StankApe]

so, were you a bulldog brought in by janadele since she was unable (or unwilling) to engage us in a discussion about the LDS and BOM without resorting to preaching?

I find it a bit of a coincidence that your membership seemed to coincide with her struggling to convince anyone in this thread.

But,I could be wrong, and willing to admit it if I am, unlike some religious cult members I know of....

 

[RandFan]

It may come as a surprise to you, bruto, but faith is the first principle of the gospel, as stated in the 4th Article of Faith.

I make this post with some reluctance, because I suspect it will be mocked, derided, labeled as discriminatory, and otherwise trashed. I take comfort, however, in the fact that I have not returned the "favor" with respect to non-believers. Thus, in the 11th Article of Faith, we read: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may [emphasis added].

I respect your right to believe how you wish. I will not come to your home and try to convert you to atheism.

That said, Mormonism is not immune to criticism. You've come to a skeptics site. We don't recognize the D&C or the Mormon Articles of Faith. Stop playing the victim card. This isn't a place for you to preach without your views being examined critically.

Religion doesn't get a pass and the reason it doesn't is because it harms people (see 9/11, inquisitions, crusades, Salem Witch Trials, etc., etc.. We live in a free society and we have every right to speak up when we see people being harmed. We fight against scam artists and charlatans.

Religious faith (blind faith) is simply the elevation of ignorance.

“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.”

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You can stop telling us about faith.

 

[StankApe]

God isn't real, and if he WAS real, the god of the bible is a horrible ,terrible jerk, not worthy of worship.

YMMV

 

[Pixel42]

I just want to know why, if skyrider's saying what I think he's saying, Mormon missionaries are instructed to make the promise that was made to asydhouse. According to the quote he's just given, it's a barefaced lie.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Perhaps I should "stoop" to give asydhouse a response ... Doctrine & Covenants 46: 11-14 (abridged): ... To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God. . . . To others it is given to believe on their words.

Thanks for condescending, that makes it clear: not everyone gets an answer.

So when, as asydhouse described:

... Mormon missionaries told me that if I prayed sincerely I would definitely receive an answer from God to tell me that the Mormon Church was the true church.

... those were false promises, and he'd have saved himself a lot of heartache if he'd just assumed they were lying.

 

[Pup]

It may come as a surprise to you, bruto, but faith is the first principle of the gospel, as stated in the 4th Article of Faith.

That's the key difference between faith and the scientific method. No faith is required to replicate a scientific experiment; if done the same way, it should work the same way, regardless what a person believes.

The approach to religion through faith is simply incompatible with the scientific method.

As long as a person stays firmly on the ground of faith, and relies on an unprovable god of the gaps, religious beliefs really can't be countered. Even many non-religious beliefs fall in that realm, with statements like "snowboarding is fun," or "oysters taste good" or "slavery is morally wrong." A person can believe them to be true and find others who feel the same way, and yet not be able to prove them to be objectively true, nor even need to prove them other than with circular reasoning: oysters taste good to those who like oysters.

If a person makes testable claims based on religion or any other subjective beliefs, they're entering into the realm of the scientific method, and the scientific method can and will be applied by others, who rely on the scientific method to learn about reality.

 

[ria_rokz]

They may well be offended, but they are just as wrong as Smith.

Yes, that is true. I wasn't trying to say who is right. This was in response to an earlier post where someone pondered what Native Americans thought of Smith's theory about their origin. I couldn't find it again to quote it, sorry.

 

[DragonLady]

In Doctrine & Covenants 46: 11-14 (abridged): For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby. To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God. . . . To others it is given to believe on their words, that they might also have eternal life if they continue to be faithful.

Can you explain the bolded sentence? Who's word is "their word"?

Does this not stand in bold contrast to the KJV?

Psalms 34:4 I sought the LORD, and he answered me; he delivered me from all my fears.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 12:21 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

etc. etc....


There's nothing ambiguous about it. Ask, and get an answer. Surely God the Eternal and Almighty can follow through on his own promises?

Oh, wait.... Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I could fill up a thread with broken promises from the KJV....

And while we're on the subject, what about the Book of Revelations?

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

What happened to that promise?

 

[Foster Zygote]

It may come as a surprise to you, bruto, but faith is the first principle of the gospel, as stated in the 4th Article of Faith.

We are well aware of the role that faith plays in many religions. Many of us used to be theists. The issue is, of what value is faith? Why is it a virtue to believe something without evidence?

I make this post with some reluctance, because I suspect it will be mocked, derided, labeled as discriminatory, and otherwise trashed.

Why do you suspect that? You have yet to be mocked, derided, labeled as discriminatory, or trashed by anyone. Again, saying "I think you are wrong", or challenging you to defend your assertions is not improper behavior. Your continued insistence on playing the martyr only further suggests that you are frustrated by your lack of success in this debate.

I take comfort, however, in the fact that I have not returned the "favor" with respect to non-believers.

But you have. You have implied that we are acting unethically simply by attempting to make you see our position on this matter.

Thus, in the 11th Article of Faith, we read: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may [emphasis added].

I'm sorry, but are you implying that we are not allowing you worship according to your conscience?

 

[RandFan]

Perhaps I should "stoop" to give asydhouse a response ... Doctrine & Covenants 46: 11-14 (abridged): ... To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God. . . . To others it is given to believe on their words.

Thanks for condescending, that makes it clear: not everyone gets an answer.

According to the current narrative, Joseph Smith was reading the Bible when he came across the following passage that caused him to pray to god to find the truth:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Please note the word "all". Not some. Not most. "ALL".

 

[RandFan]

We can read scripture also.

What happened to that promise?

Continuing in that vain.

“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

 

[gabeygoat]

I should add that there was a time, in a more civil age, when it was considered boorish and coarse to denigrate a person's faith, and--by extrapolation--the person himself/herself.

If the person's faith includes the idea that a Kind, Loving, Merciful god is going to send me to hell to suffer and die, then, well, they've already ceded the politeness expectation. In other words: If you love a god that will make me suffer needlessly, I have no reason to be particularly nice to you.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Continuing in that vain.

RandFan. I have some movie stills needing to be identified at this thread....

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95405&page=86

Might be right up your alley..................................

 

[RandFan]

My Testimony Story:

My Mother was Mormon though inactive when she met my father who was a non-Mormon. He converted when I was 5 and they became active and devout members.

I had trusted my parents my entire life and had never received the "burning in the bosom" or my own personal revelation as to the truthfulness of the Mormon Church.

So, when it came time for me to go on my mission I sought that testimony. I prayed. I fasted. I cried out to god on my knees day and night. But I never received an answer. My 18th birthday had come and gone and no witness of the holy ghost.

So, 6 months after my birthday my bishop called me into his office for an interview. He asked me why I had not started my paperwork to go on a mission. I told him I had not received an answer to my prayers. That day he made me a promise. Turn in my paperwork and go through the temple and I would have my answer. So did.

The day of my first visit to the Mormon Temple in SLC was one of the wildest roller coasters of my life. There was no Internet and I had no idea what I was in store for. I won't recount everything but I will tell you I was shocked at the ceremony and ritual. I stood there aghast at the rituals I was partaking in. As the ceremony preceded (we moved from room to room) I had various feelings of fear and joy and apprehension. Toward the end I started to accept what I was going through and at one moment I felt very calm and peaceful.

I need to point out that the interior of the Temple is absolutely exquisite. Ornate and decorated with the finest of materials. It's quite frankly beautiful. There is a point at which you are brought to a room where there is a large partition of curtains. This is called the veil. It is at this point members go through a ritual that symbolizes one's entrance into the Celestial Kingdom (highest order of Heaven). Members are taken one by one to the veil where on one side is an assistant and the other an inquisitor (think St. Peter see LDS Endowment). At this point you are asked some questions and then you are allowed to enter. This is the most spectacular of the rooms. It's quite and peaceful and at this moment you feel as though you are sitting in heaven literally. At some point my father (both my mother and father also attended the same ceremony) approached me and asked "are you aware that you are crying? Tears were streaming down my face and at that moment I knew that my Bishops promise had been answered and I had received my answer.

After my mission I came home and studied psychology at the University of Utah. One of my classes discussed cults and how to manipulate emotions. Over time, and with much study of the human mind, it was readily apparent that I had, like many people of many faiths, experience what was actually a pedestrian religious experience typical of all faiths. I realize now that I had been manipulated by well known psychological techniques. I'll post more on this later.

 

[DragonLady]

RandFan, the site you linked to is really interesting. I hope to read the whole thing later. The references to secret handshakes and holy nails are intriguing.

 

[Shalamar]

Thanks for the story, and the links, RandFan. I have to say that you and a couple others are very good about teaching others about the LDS church, and pointing out more than just the surface.

Alas, neither Janadele nor Skyrider44 have anything to say about the LDS church beyond 'BELIEVE!'.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Perhaps I should "stoop" to give asydhouse a response (although I think I know why he keeps raising the "issue"). In Doctrine & Covenants 46: 11-14 (abridged): For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby. To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God. . . . To others it is given to believe on their words, that they might also have eternal life if they continue to be faithful. [This theme continues for several more passages.]

It may come as a surprise to you, bruto, but faith is the first principle of the gospel, as stated in the 4th Article of Faith.

I make this post with some reluctance, because I suspect it will be mocked, derided, labeled as discriminatory, and otherwise trashed. I take comfort, however, in the fact that I have not returned the "favor" with respect to non-believers. Thus, in the 11th Article of Faith, we read: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may [emphasis added].

...in this post: "stoop" to give an answer? Really?

Other posts in fee simple:
#1013
#1015
#1018
#1024
...and so on, including "stooping" to equivocation and pretend word games.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, the site you linked to is really interesting. I hope to read the whole thing later. The references to secret handshakes and holy nails are intriguing.

Yeah, bear in mind Smith took some if not most of ceremony (at times word for word), from the Mason ceremony.

Mormon temple worship shares an extensive commonality of symbols, signs, vocabulary and clothing with Freemasonry, including robes, aprons, handshakes, ritualistic raising of the arms, etc.

BTW: When I went through the temple I had to take the blood oaths as depicted below. The blood oaths are no longer part of the ceremony.

 

[jimbob]

Thanks RandFan
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