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Ughm...a question? How long has Hebrew been a written language? And did any of the Native American have any coherent writings when Columbus arrived?
Speaking specifically about the Aztecs, yes they had written language, but a whole bunch of that was destroyed after the Conquistadors. The Olmecs had hieroglyphic language 3,000 years ago, but I don't know if it was still around when Columbus arrived. Some aboriginal languages in Canada had writing and / or hieroglyphs. In today's USA, I'm unaware of any writing that pre-dates Columbus, but that could be my own ignorance.

The apologetics page that was linked above explains the failure of Hebrew (a written language for what, 5,000 years?) to survive the trip to North America thusly:


The FAIR Wiki said:
It is important to note that we may never find traces of Hebrew language among American languages for the simple fact that the Lehite’s mother tongue all-but-disappeared shortly after their arrival in the New World. When Moroni writes about reformed Egyptian, he also explains that the “Hebrew hath been altered by us also” (Mormon 9:33).
...

The most likely scenario is that the Lehites—who were a small incursion into a larger existing native populace—embraced the habits, culture, and language of their neighbors within a very short period after their arrival in the New World. This is what we generally find when a small group melds with a larger group. The smaller group usually takes on the traits of the larger (or, at least, the more powerful) group—not the other way around. It is not unusual, however, for at least some of the characteristics of the smaller group to show up in the larger group’s culture. Typically, however, the smaller group becomes part of the larger group with which they merge. Thus, the Lehites would have become Mesoamericans.

...

Under such conditions, would there be any reason to expect that we’d find “Hebrew” among the Native Americans?
Yeah, it's not like Hebrews have historically made much efforts to keep their language while living among other cultures and language-speakers. :rolleyes:

Dragonlady said:
I'm just asking...but it seems if Hebrews came to America, they would have brought that skill with them; and I think it follows they would have written quite a bit. I doubt they would have only written on one set of "golden tablets" considering the time and work involved; and written contracts and such would have been needed everyday? Has any such thing ever been found?
Well, you see that, by coincidence, the folks who emigrated weren't among the most literate:

In the Book of Mormon we infer that training and devotion were necessary to competently master their difficult writing system. King Benjamin, for example, “caused that [his princely sons] should be taught all the languages of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding” (Mosiah 1:3). Moroni, who had mastered the art himself, lamented that the Lord had not made the Nephites “mighty in writing” (Ether 12:23).
But by the same token, they did have a priestly class that wrote:
The FAIR Wiki said:
We see, therefore, the necessity to teach the Old World language to a few elite in order to preserve, not only the traditions, but also to maintain a continuation of scribes who could read the writings of past generations.

...

King Benjamin, for example, “caused that [his princely sons] should be taught all the languages of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding”

But, even those that were educated in this written, Old-World language, didn't leave any written evidence of it, anywhere, because ... they somehow immediately adapted their "Old World" written language with no vowels into nahuatl script.

The FAIR Wiki said:
Even with such instruction, however, the script was most likely an altered form of Egyptian—perhaps adapted to Mesoamerican scripts—and altered according to their language. This suggests that ideas and motifs that originated in the Old World were adapted to a script that could be conveyed with New World motifs, or at least New World glyphs.
So, in summary, you wouldn't expect to find any written language from the Middle East in the Americas. Except, this being religious apologetics, that we do see it!

The FAIR Wiki said:
Perhaps the most surprising of all Eurasian-American linguistic connections, at least in geographic terms, is that proposed by Brian Stubbs: a strong link between the Uto-Aztecan and Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) languages. The Uto-Aztecan languages are, or have been, spoken in western North America from Idaho to El Salvador. One would expect that, if Semites or their linguistic kinsmen from northern Africa were to reach the New World by water, their route would be trans-Atlantic. Indeed, what graphonomic evidence there is indicates exactly that: Canaanite inscriptions are found in Georgia and Tennessee as well as in Brazil; and Mediterranean coins, some Hebrew and Moroccan Arabic, are found in Kentucky as well as Venezuela [citing Cyrus Gordon].

Again, this being apologetics, they just throw a bunch of **** at the wall to see what sticks. For more info, type "Gish Gallop" into your search engine, and choose any link. :rolleyes:
 
Thank-you, Calitos. :) I appreciate your taking the time to explain all that. :)

No problem. Full disclosure, the Hebrew vs. New World language examples listed at the FAIR site are said to be from "Uto-Aztecan" so the author had probably 20 or 30 actual languages to cherry pick choose from. My example of "nahuatl" was overly simplistic, and the nahuatl words aren't anything like the words cited by FAIR.
 
Oh, the "anti-Mormon" crap again. :rolleyes:



Yeah, FAIR was brought up earlier. Their "explanations" for these anachronisms are rather amusing - for example, they think that when the BoM was talking about "horses" it probably "really" meant deer and tapir.

"FAIR" makes crap up to support their belief in a made-up book.

Wait, there's a difference between horses and deer? No wonder my steed Bambi and I keep getting thrown out of show-jumping competitions.
 
The Mexicha (aka Aztecs), Olmecs, Toltecs, and Mayans all had forms of hieroglyphic writing. (Mayan writing was only deciphered fairly recently, IIRC in the 80s-90s.) Some South American groups, like the Inca, had a primitive form of "writing" called quipo, involving pieces of colored string tied into various knot formations.

Needless to say, none of these writing systems resemble or have any trace of Semitic language in them, as one would expect if they were formed by (or incorporated a large group of) Hebrews. Nor do their religions/mythologies bear any resemblance to Judaism or early Christianity.
 
That decision is solely your own.
Exactly. And no one here is forcing anyone to accept anything. Like the missionaries we are trying to propagate what we believe to be the truth. You want us to stop doing that all the while the Mormons do so officially. Don't you see the hypocrisy of that?
 
Wait, there's a difference between horses and deer? No wonder my steed Bambi and I keep getting thrown out of show-jumping competitions.

FAIR would have us believe that people were riding around on chariots pulled by tapirs, and sitting on deer-mounted saddles. Seriously.

Look, I can understand wanting there to be an explanation for the problems with the Book of Mormon, but pointing at these goobers in order to do it is really not the way to go.
 
FAIR would have us believe that people were riding around on chariots pulled by tapirs, and sitting on deer-mounted saddles. Seriously.

Look, I can understand wanting there to be an explanation for the problems with the Book of Mormon, but pointing at these goobers in order to do it is really not the way to go.
These ad hoc explanations are so poor that at best they can only keep Mormons from apostatizing but not all of them. Few if any reasonable and informed individual would accept the explanations.

Challenge to Mormons: Please to list the neutral parties (non-Mormon) that support these explanations? Scientists are by and large objective. Not all of them (if any of them) are "anti-Mormon". Many are dedicated to the truth. Surely some of them would agree with FAIR, right?
 
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Why should a religious belief be held in a special category of irrational ideas that can't be challenged?

It shouldn't be, and I never said it was. To challenge is one thing, to besmirch is another, as in "She [Janadele] looks like a complete fool" (Vic Vega, Post 703 [before the split]).

That aside, religious belief is not an "irrational" idea. If you believe that, then you must also believe that the following were beset with irrational ideas:
Nicholas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, William Thomson Kelvin, Max Planck--the list goes on.
 
Nope, all those guys may have had rational scientific beliefs, but their belief in a God is entirely irrational. Human beings aren't robots, we aren't always consistent in our rationality (in fact rarely so)

go look at the political forum here for evidence
 
Exactly. And no one here is forcing anyone to accept anything. Like the missionaries we are trying to propagate what we believe to be the truth. You want us to stop doing that all the while the Mormons do so officially. Don't you see the hypocrisy of that?

Obviously, you're free to propagate what [you] believe to be the truth. Thanks for tacitly admitting that belief requires an element of faith.
 
The power of the truth:

The fastest growing "religious" group in America is made up of people with no religion at all, according to a Pew survey showing that one in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion.

Mormon Church Admitting the Internet is Hurting Retention of Members

Why? Why is this happening? The internet has the power to expose reality. The Internet: Where religions come to die

Religions are fond of not letting prospective converts know the truth (milk before meat). The Internet doesn't let them get away with that. Be it Scientology, Jehova's Witness, Catholic or evangelical.

You can't hide the truth anymore.
 
nitpicking..............

Newton's scientific discoveries are rational, his religious beliefs are not,

work better for you now?
 
Nicholas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, William Thomson Kelvin, Max Planck--the list goes on.
Isaac Newton, arguably the greatest mind of any century, believed in Alchemy. Alchemy is without evidentiary basis.

But these people lived in a time when religion had far more control over everyone's lives. I can understand why so many scientists were religious (an irrational belief).

Today? 93% do not believe in a personal god. 93% of the top scientists in the world reject religion. Had the scientists from your list lived today the statistics tell us they would all be atheists or deists.
 
The fastest growing "religious" group in America is made up of people with no religion at all, according to a Pew survey showing that one in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion.

Mormon Church Admitting the Internet is Hurting Retention of Members

Why? Why is this happening? The internet has the power to expose reality. The Internet: Where religions come to die

Religions are fond of not letting prospective converts know the truth (milk before meat). The Internet doesn't let them get away with that. Be it Scientology, Jehova's Witness, Catholic or evangelical.

You can't hide the truth anymore.

So, you think the internet is the great purveyor of the unvarnished truth, huh?

Too, too funny.
 
It shouldn't be, and I never said it was. To challenge is one thing, to besmirch is another, as in "She [Janadele] looks like a complete fool" (Vic Vega, Post 703 [before the split]).

That aside, religious belief is not an "irrational" idea. If you believe that, then you must also believe that the following were beset with irrational ideas:
Nicholas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, William Thomson Kelvin, Max Planck--the list goes on.

argumentum ad populumWP

argument from authorityWP
 
That aside, religious belief is not an "irrational" idea. If you believe that, then you must also believe that the following were beset with irrational ideas:
Nicholas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, William Thomson Kelvin, Max Planck--the list goes on.

Yes religious belief is an irrational idea and yes those people had irrational ideas.
They were not beset by those ideas, but they did have them.
 
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