LDS

[dafydd]

Your logic is circular. You beg the question.

Especially when you consider that Mormonism is based on lies and fabrications.

 

[Cleon]

Hmmm....

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young

Interracial children = the death penalty. Yeah, he sounds like a righteous guy.

 

[Empress]

The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.

If you see a post that violates the MA, there's a little triangle with an exclamation point in it, on the bottom left of a post. Clicking that will report the post to the mods for any action they deem necessary.

How, then, does the LDS Church defend Smith from this facts? Simple denial may be effective for some, but as a general strategy, I have to believe the Church, itself, has a stronger position.

Prior to the early 70's, I think they denied that JS was ever even charged with treasure-hunting, claiming it was lies and propaganda by anti-Mormon activists. (Sound familiar? ) Unfortunately for them, some of the original trial papers were found in the cellar of the courthouse, which showed conclusively that JS was put on trial on that charge. Now, my mother's argument is that the trial was unjust, brought against JS by people who hated the church. This is obviously nonsense, as the trial predated the Mormon Church founding, and the primary witness, the farmer, apparently testified that he still believed in Smith's abilities. Not exactly anti-Mormon. I don't believe there are any extant records showing whether or not he was found guilty, but later statements by people who had apparently attended the trial, maintain that he was found guilty of the misdemeanor, and fined.

 

[RandFan]

Hmmm....

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young

Is that one of those ''Eternal Truths''?

Exactly. Always and eternal... unless of course god changes his mind...

Perhaps Young had a different interpretation of "always".

 

[RandFan]

Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church, Address by APOSTLE Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

"God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come.

 

[Cleon]

The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.

What you want is a thread for empty preaching, without being challenged. That won't happen here, sorry.

In the meantime, it would be nice if you could point out a single lie, myth, fabrication, or misinterpretation. Pointing out that the Book of Mormon describes technology, flora, and fauna that were unknown in the Americas at that time is none of the above.

 

[jsfisher]

The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quite right! A rather broad topic, too, no? It would and should include the tenets of the religion, its practices, and its origins, and along those paths it is fair and appropriate to compare them with history, facts, and motivations. Wouldn't you agree?

Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.

I see several skeptics, here, and a few with just general interest. Who are these anti-Mormon factions of which you speak?

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Example please.

Any post that agree's with her particular delusions is fine, start asking questions and you're an anti mormon liar, obviously.

 

[Pup]

President Spencer W. Kimball states:
“But let us emphasize that right and wrong, righteousness and sin, are not dependent upon man’s interpretations, conventions and attitudes. Social acceptance does not change the status of an act, making wrong into right. If all the people in the world were to accept homosexuality…the practice would still be a deep dark sin.

Society as it degenerates might skid down the hill toward acceptance of (homosexual relations), but the Lord and his true Church will never condone these sexual sins. God is the same yesterday, today and forever."

That sounds eerily similar to something a previous prophet of the church said on a different but related topic.

From Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, Discourse 25, Remarks by President Brigham Young, made in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, March 8, 1863

http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/jodhtml.php?vol=10&disc=25
(note the URL--not an anti-Mormon site, and the full quote is there in context)

The rank, rabid abolitionists, whom I call black-hearted Republicans, have set the whole national fabric on fire. Do you know this, Democrats? They have kindled the fire that is raging now from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. I am no abolitionist, neither am I a proslavery man; I hate some of their principles and especially some of their conduct, as I do the gates of hell. The Southerners make the negroes, and the Northerners worship them; this is all the difference between slaveholders and abolitionists. I would like the President of the United States and all the world to hear this.

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.

Edited to add: I just saw that Randfan beat me to it. Darn it, that's what I get for taking the time to make fried potatoes in between posting.

 

[RandFan]

Edited to add: I just saw that Randfan beat me to it. Darn it, that's what I get for taking the time to make fried potatoes in between posting.

I'd take the fried potatoes over being first. I'm hungry.

 

[Mister Earl]

For that matter, why would angels give you plates you had to translate? Is heaven really that user-unfriendly that they have to bundle in a magic hat just to make the darned plates readable?

 

[Janadele]

The reference is a church missionary pamphlet. The pamphlet, however, does not use the word “vision” but refers to it as an actual occurrence that happened twice (“Joseph Smith’s Testimony,” pp. 19-20).

The Three Witnesses only saw the plates in visions; they didn't "see-see" the plates.

 

[RandFan]

For that matter, why would angels give you plates you had to translate? Is heaven really that user-unfriendly that they have to bundle in a magic hat just to make the darned plates readable?

And to be clear, the plates, by Smith's own testimony, were not even needed.

source Smith dictated the text of the [Book of Mormon] over the next several years, claiming that it was a translation of the plates. He did this by using a seer stone which he placed in the bottom of a hat and then placed the hat over his face to view the words written within the stone.[3]

IMO: That does not meet the definition of "translation".

 

[Pup]

I'm not. Smith's behavior is typical of church leader con-artists. When I was an active member I thought Smith was a decent man. Not a con-artist that made money using supernatural means to find gold buried in the ground. It's a fact that Smith did that. He just changed his scam to using supernatural means to find gold scriptures.

It was an effective scam. If you promise people to find them gold for a fee and you fail they often get upset. If you promise people eternal life that's a little bit more difficult to get upset that you didn't get your eternal life.

While it's true that, by definition, anyone claiming supernatural powers is running a scam, I've always felt it an oversimplification to say that Smith was just a con artist. A typical con artist usually has an out-of-character side, a life he can retreat to, the reason he's running the scam. There's no doubt that P. T. Barnum, for example, knew he didn't really have a memaid on exhibit, or that Mark Twain knew there wasn't a petrified man. Barnum was doing it for money and prestige, and one could say that Smith was doing it for money to some extent, and for ego, prestige and some sense of power over people, certainly. And to get chicks, of course.

But there came a point when the negatives were outweighing the positives, the money wasn't really coming in due to the constant being chased around, he was getting people killed, he was under constant threat himself. If it was "just" a con, logic would dictate he quit that one, change his identity and retire to running a safe little shell game someplace.

I think at some point he became taken in by his own con. The game got too big, and was running him instead of the other way around.

Oddly enough, the next prophet, the one who isn't most closely associated with the label conman, was the one who succeeded at it: Brigham Young. But if Smith was just a conman, Brigham Young was too (and so are all people who support themselves by religion, from small-town preachers to the Pope).

Yet, somehow, Smith gets painted as a conman, while Brigham Young gets categorized more as a religious leader. A fanatical, deluded, power-hungry, dictatorial religious leader to his critics, sure, but not just a con artist. I think Smith came a long way from his early small-time tricks, and turned into something more like Brigham Young at the end, rather than P. T. Barnum.

 

[RandFan]

Pup,

It wasn't just the money. It was power. At one time Smith had a militia of thousands.

This force was a militia similar to others in Illinois, and it became known as the "Nauvoo Legion". At its peak, the militia had, by conservative estimates, at least 2,500 troops, in comparison to the approximately 8,500 troops within the entire United States Army as of 1845.[1]

That's some pretty heady stuff even in difficult times. I suspect his ego was too big to just walk away. Hope springs eternal. I'm sure Smith thought he could turn things around. But you are correct, by the time of his death Smith was not just a pedestrian con-artist.

 

[Pup]

It wasn't just the money. It was power. At one time Smith had a militia of thousands.

I don't disagree at all. As I said, "Smith was doing it for money to some extent, and for ego, prestige and some sense of power over people, certainly."

Hope springs eternal. I'm sure Smith thought he could turn things around.

Good point. The potential of a Brigham-Young-type monarchy was there, he just couldn't realize it.

 

[poblob14]

The reference is a church missionary pamphlet. The pamphlet, however, does not use the word “vision” but refers to it as an actual occurrence that happened twice (“Joseph Smith’s Testimony,” pp. 19-20).

I have no idea what any missionary pamphlet says, but there are numerous references on the Web to John Gilbert (the original typesetter for the BoM) quoting Martin Harris as saying he saw the plates "with a spiritual eye." Apparently that is in an 1892 memo of Gilbert's. Here is a pro-Mormon site that discusses the issue, since you don't like ExMo sites. The author of that site seems to handwave it a bit, saying the experience was both physical and visionary.

And do we have an answer to the barley question yet?

 

[Pup]

Here's something of interest that my wife pointed out, from a book she bought out in Salt Lake City at the Deseret book store years ago.

It's from p.57-58 Joseph Smith and the Restoration: A History of the LDS Church to 1846 by Ivan J. Barrett. Definitely not an anti-Mormon author, Barrett was born and raised in Utah, served a mission, got a bachelors from Utah State University, masters from BYU, and was employed by the Church Educational System. The book was published by BYU Press.

I've tried to cut the quote down as much as possible to avoid quoting too much copyrighted material. But this puts Smith's early days in context, and check out the part I've bolded. Remember, this is from a pro-church publication written by a faithful member.

During the years Joseph Smith was growing into young manhood, men in New York, Vermont, and Pennsylvania were searching for buried treasure, looking at stones concealed in old hats, and claiming to see hidden objects. Farmers on the verge of losing their farms to land agents were desperate...

The [Palmyra] Wayne Sentinel, February 16, 1825 [wrote]: "We could name, if we pleased, at least five hundred respectable men who do in the simplicity and sincerity of their hearts believe that immense treasures lie concealed upon our green mountains..."...

[The author describes signs of old Indian habitations being found, axes, arrowheads, beads, etc., which gave people hope, but nothing valuable.]

A "vagabond fortune-teller" named Walters appeared on the scene and so ingratiated himself with the farmers that they paid him three dollars a day for his services in directing them to the buried loot hiden in bygone days. The editor of the Palmyra Reflector reported Walter's finding an old Indian record that described the locations of buried Indian treasure. Purportedly, Walters became a bosom companion of young Joseph Smith and suggested to him the idea of finding a golden book that would give the history of the American aboriginies. [This part is footnoted to Francis W. Kirkham, A New Witness for Christ in America, 2 vol. Independence Mo.: Zion's Printing Co., 1942]

 

[Shalamar]

The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.

Discussing the potential lies and falsehoods of the LDS church, as well as its founders are very much on topic.

They will be mentioned. If you feel that the statements made by others are incorrect, you are free to refute them, with evidence. Claiming 'Thats not true!' without something to back it up is not discussing.

 

[Janadele]

The three witnesses gave a different kind of testimony than the eight.

Ye may show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work; and unto three shall they be shown by the power of God.

Ether 5:2-4

2 And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work;

3 And unto three shall they be shown by the power of God; wherefore they shall know of a surety that these things are true.

4 And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established; and the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost bear record—and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/5?lang=eng

2 Nephi. Chapter 27 Predicts:
12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that athree bwitnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

13 And there is anone other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/27?lang=eng

The reference is a church missionary pamphlet. The pamphlet, however, does not use the word “vision” but refers to it as an actual occurrence that happened twice (“Joseph Smith’s Testimony,” pp. 19-20).

The Three Witnesses only saw the plates in visions; they didn't "see-see" the plates. The Eight said they did see and handle the plates, although Joseph Smith had said no one else would: