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Janadele said:
Craig.. Barley is a great as a drink and as a natural thickener for soup. Through the ages from the time of Adam mankind has enjoyed the health benefits of Barley and other crops given to us from our loving Heavenly Father. There is no great mystery in this.:D
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All true. Only it wasn't cultivated in the pre-Colombian New World. There also weren't pigs or horses. So, no barley, no true revelation
 
Janadele said:
The Prophet Joseph Smith’s own words about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon are:

“On the evening of the … twenty-first of September [1823] … I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God. … While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do;
He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted Seers in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

For the complete record, see Joseph Smith—History, in the Pearl of Great Price, and History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,volume 1, chapters 1 through 6.
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Odd that this Moroni fella went to all that work but neglected even the most basic of fact checking. You've got a very sloppy angel there.
 
Now-much-shorter thread reopened. Please remember that the topic of this thread is the LDS church and not each other. Don't make me come back in here, he said in his stern voice. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
 
Ok, back on topic: I was not aware of the seedier side of Joseph Smith's existence, and I would like to hear more. How about we explore the sub-topic the accusations of impropriety, the evidence, and the counter-claims?

As I understand things, Smith was convicted of "glass looking," which is a curious phrase meaning he was a scam artist. He'd separated a farmer from some money in exchange for information about buried treasure. I'm sure there are more details, but were there other assorted convictions?
 
Janadele said:
The Testimony of Eight Witnesses
[snip]
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
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So, the four brothers of David Whitmer (one of the Three Witnesses), his brother-in-law (Page), and Joseph Smith's father and two brothers. No motivation to dissemble there . . . .

Also, for those who don't know and didn't pick up on it in the earlier posts: The Three Witnesses only saw the plates in visions; they didn't "see-see" the plates. The Eight said they did see and handle the plates, although Joseph Smith had said no one else would:

Doctine and Covenants 5 said:
11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.

12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them.

13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;

14 And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness—clear as the moon and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.
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I suppose the seedy side of Joseph Smith might be an interesting subject separately, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference here. First of all, he might have been a super guy and clean as a whistle and still come up with a load of nonsense. Second, although I imagine it's possible to do so with some work, it might prove difficult to sort out true allegations from false here. Remember that Smith and his followers were faced with rampant, murderous bigotry and hatred in their lives. Whatever you think about Mormons, their persecution is a blot on the history of other Christians. I would be very careful taking any story about misbehavior on faith here. I am quite willing to pass on Smith's character and disbelieve his ideas because they're not believable.
 
jsfisher said:
Ok, back on topic: I was not aware of the seedier side of Joseph Smith's existence, and I would like to hear more. How about we explore the sub-topic the accusations of impropriety, the evidence, and the counter-claims?

As I understand things, Smith was convicted of "glass looking," which is a curious phrase meaning he was a scam artist. He'd separated a farmer from some money in exchange for information about buried treasure. I'm sure there are more details, but were there other assorted convictions?
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Not to my knowledge, at least prior to the founding of his church. Smith was in trouble with the law many times after the founding: for example, when he ordered the printing press of the Navoo Expositor destroyed. It was this order that eventually led to Smith's murder by a mob while he was in the Carthage jail awaiting trial.

The glass-looking trial is quite interesting, however, as I think it shows the force of Smith's ability to con people. It appears that the farmer for whom he was peeping, testified that Smith truly did have the ability to see supernaturally with a peep-stone, and genuinely believe everything that Smith told him. Smith's story, as I recall it, was that there was a treasure buried on the farmer's land, but that it was enchanted. Every time the diggers got close, the chest would move down deeper in the earth, so it was always about five feet down. I believe at one point that Smith said they should fast and pray to remove the enchantments. As ludicrous as all this sounds to us, the farmer considered Smith to be a gifted seer, and, much like some victims of Ponzi schemes, seemed to feel that if the authorities had just left them alone, things would have worked out just dandy.

The testimony at the trial for glass-looking is interesting in another way. The reports of how Smith went about looking for treasure, and how he translated the BoM are strong parallels. It's clear that JS was using the same story both before and after the founding of the Mormon church. Before, he was sticking his head in his hat to find treasure; after he was doing so to translate golden plates shown to him by an angel.
 
bruto said:
I suppose the seedy side of Joseph Smith might be an interesting subject separately, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference here. First of all, he might have been a super guy and clean as a whistle and still come up with a load of nonsense. Second, although I imagine it's possible to do so with some work, it might prove difficult to sort out true allegations from false here. Remember that Smith and his followers were faced with rampant, murderous bigotry and hatred in their lives. Whatever you think about Mormons, their persecution is a blot on the history of other Christians. I would be very careful taking any story about misbehavior on faith here. I am quite willing to pass on Smith's character and disbelieve his ideas because they're not believable.
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I'm not. Smith's behavior is typical of church leader con-artists. When I was an active member I thought Smith was a decent man. Not a con-artist that made money using supernatural means to find gold buried in the ground. It's a fact that Smith did that. He just changed his scam to using supernatural means to find gold scriptures.

It was an effective scam. If you promise people to find them gold for a fee and you fail they often get upset. If you promise people eternal life that's a little bit more difficult to get upset that you didn't get your eternal life.
 
President Spencer W. Kimball states:
“But let us emphasize that right and wrong, righteousness and sin, are not dependent upon man’s interpretations, conventions and attitudes. Social acceptance does not change the status of an act, making wrong into right. If all the people in the world were to accept homosexuality…the practice would still be a deep dark sin.

Society as it degenerates might skid down the hill toward acceptance of (homosexual relations), but the Lord and his true Church will never condone these sexual sins. God is the same yesterday, today and forever."
Pup said:
When I asked how you knew that gay marriage would never be allowed in the LDS church, you said in post 58 "Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence."
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How, then, does the LDS Church defend Smith from this facts? Simple denial may be effective for some, but as a general strategy, I have to believe the Church, itself, has a stronger position.
 
Janadele said:
President Spencer W. Kimball states:
“But let us emphasize that right and wrong, righteousness and sin, are not dependent upon man’s interpretations, conventions and attitudes. Social acceptance does not change the status of an act, making wrong into right. If all the people in the world were to accept homosexuality…the practice would still be a deep dark sin.

Society as it degenerates might skid down the hill toward acceptance of (homosexual relations), but the Lord and his true Church will never condone these sexual sins. God is the same yesterday, today and forever."
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Previous LDS presidents said the same thing about black men entering the priesthood.
 
jsfisher said:
How, then, does the LDS Church defend Smith from this facts? Simple denial may be effective for some, but as a general strategy, I have to believe the Church, itself, has a stronger position.
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They have apologetics. FAIR and FARMS. Like Christians defending god killing children Mormon's have lots of explanations for Smiths antics. Often they deny and when they can't deny the dissemble or obfuscate. Most members just need a seemingly plausible explanation. There's a term for that but my brain is fried at the moment. In any event, most of the "explanations" are only effective with true believers. Smiths conviction predates the claim of the gold plates and are a matter of public record.
 
The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.
 
Janadele said:
The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.
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Example please.
 
Janadele said:
The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.
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Please to point out any "lies"? That something is critical of Mormonism doesn't make that propaganda.

Your logic is circular. You beg the question.
 
Janadele said:
No,they did not.
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Hmmm....

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young
 
RandFan said:
Hmmm....

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young
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Is that one of those ''Eternal Truths''?
 
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