LDS

[TheRedWorm]

One can't help but wonder why god didn't tell his prophet that god's church (LDS) was purchasing forgeries from Mark Hoffman.

See Salamander Letters.

Apparently over the years god failed to tell the Mormon prophets lots of important things. He didn't tell Joseph that he would be arrested and murdered. He didn't tell Joseph that Smith's bank would fail. He left out the part about boiling water to make it safe from the word of wisdom. Had he done so he could have saved the lives of many Saints. Instead god, in his infinite wisdom told the Saints NOT to partake of hot drinks. Not that the prescription resulted in deaths but don't you think "hey, boil your water before you drink it" would have been better than "don't drink hot drinks"?

Illness and Mortality in Nineteenth-Century Mormon Immigration

Isn't it funny; that almost every prophet seems to only be as knowledgeable about the world as the commoners from the culture that produces them, and sometimes, not even that knowledgeable.

 

[Janadele]

Myriad,
It saddens me also the cruelty we find in our world. Our only consolation is that though at times it seems interminable, our time here is very short. It seems only yesterday when we look back upon our lives.

We chose to come to this earth to receive our mortal body, knowing the hardships which may befall us. Yet we confidently came, in order to progress through the eternities and receive an immortal resurrected body in which our Spiritual body will dwell.

Free agency to choose good or evil and therefore reap the consequences thereof is our trial. This must be allowed to be so for all, in order to enable judgement and rewards.

The sufferings and evils of the world have been brought about by the choices mankind have made.

There is only one question of interest to me, when confronted with doctrine -- any doctrine, regardless of type or source -- that promotes cruelty. It is not a nice question, but it is an extremely important one. The question will never be answered, but sometimes just asking it is enough. Anyone with conscience must consider the question, even if they cannot bring themselves to offer an answer.

The question is: do you put up with the cruelty because it's necessary in order to follow the doctrine, or do you follow the doctrine because it offers license for the cruelty?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[RandFan]

Isn't it funny; that almost every prophet seems to only be as knowledgeable about the world as the commoners from the culture that produces them, and sometimes, not even that knowledgeable.

Here's the thing about the Salamander letters. Hofmann, though a criminal, he was very intelligent. He didn't try to sell the Mormon Church feel good crap. His stuff was intentional embarrassing to the church. He did it so the Church would be less rigorous in authenticating the documents. It also was a way to drive the price up so the Church could keep the documents hidden.

 

[Slowvehicle]

you have to be joking...

No, if I were joking, I would have said something along the lines of:
"A horse walked into a bar, and the bartender said, 'Why the long face?'
and the Horse said, 'I've been reading up on existentialism, and Spinoza and Kirkegaard are really, really downers' ".

Of the items raised in post #167, which do you feel have been misrepresented, seeing as how they are direct quoted form your book?

 

[RandFan]

The sufferings and evils of the world have been brought about by the choices mankind have made.

When a young child dies of leukemia, what bad choices did it make? This pollyannish view of the world isn't at all helpful.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing.
Then ---Whence Cometh Evil?---
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

 

[TheRedWorm]

Here's the thing about the Salamander letters. Hofmann, though a criminal, he was very intelligent. He didn't try to sell the Mormon Church feel good crap. His stuff was intentional embarrassing to the church. He did it so the Church would be less rigorous in authenticating the documents. It also was a way to drive the price up so the Church could keep the documents hidden.

Hey, makes good business sense.

 

[DragonLady]

Apparently over the years god failed to tell the Mormon prophets lots of important things. He didn't tell Joseph that he would be arrested and murdered. He didn't tell Joseph that Smith's bank would fail. When he gave Smith the Word of Wisdom he left out the part about boiling water to make it safe. Had he done so he could have *saved the lives of many Saints. Instead god, in his infinite wisdom told the Saints NOT to partake of hot drinks. Not that the prescription resulted in deaths but don't you think "hey, boil your water before you drink it" would have been better than "don't drink hot drinks"?

This. One of the things that always -even when I was very small- bugged me about the Bible was the lack of common sense instructions. A few chapters about basic first aid would have saved how many lives and how much suffering?

 

[jsfisher]

I am sure it was just an oversight, Janadele, but you have passed over this. I really am interested in your answer (to my actual question, not the question you have responded to, twice) because I think it hits upon something that is not directly in Mormon doctrine, but something in you.

Ever watch the TV series, The Prisoner? It is something of an underground classic, and well-worth the viewing time. In one of the episodes (Episode 6, curiously enough), all the residents of the village are exposed to "Speed Learn" in which a three-year college sequence in history is instilled in a matter of minutes.

There are several aspects of the episode I won't dwell on here (although they are topical); I bring it up because it turned out that the students of Speed Learn translated any question they were asked into one of the questions they were taught.

I have now asked twice, Janadele, about how do you know that most dead mortals await one of the ordinances by proxy. Each time, you have responded to a question I did not ask. Perhaps my question was easily misinterpreted, so permit me to try again:

Please, you said:

Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them

How do you know that it is most dead mortals, not just some; and how do you know they wait anxiously?

 

[Janadele]

The below quoted post does not seem to have been understood. Therefore I will clarify further.
The Spirit of a male is male. The Spirit of a female is female. In the rare occasion that the gender of the mortal body of a person is not known, then the gender of the Spiritual body is also not known while in mortality.

Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.

 

[Pup]

Why does LDS doctrine supersede the bible, New Testament at that.

The bible teaches that you cannot get to heaven by doing good stuff. LDS doctrine says 'if you do good stuff you get a better deal'

It's a huge contradiction.

In effect the LDS church is saying that the bible is the word of God, except in these special cases where it isn't, cos our founder said so.

Um, so what? That's a great argument for those who think the Bible is the holy word of God and so therefore think that any contradiction is blasphemous. But for those who think both religions are made up, one can't really be more made up than the other. They're just different.

Which leads back to my original "thoughtful post". Each denomination reads the bible a little differently. Each preacher in each individual church imparts their own interpretation on the bible with each sermon. In turn based upon how the person translating the version of the bible they are reading interpreted the text they translated, based upon how the person writing the original text remembered stuff years later..

hearsay based upon hearsay, based upon hearsay etc etc.

Ever heard of Chinese Whispers? Each iteration introduces inaccuracy.

That's where the LDS meme has a unique strength. It claims direct revelation from God, therefore eliminating Chinese whispers. So it's the Bible "as far as it's translated correctly," and the Book of Mormon, translated correctly by direct inspiration. Following that premise, of course Mormon doctrine would supercede the Bible when it contradicts it, because the prophet, the D&C and the Book of Mormon have a direct pipeline.

I mean, it's a house of cards because it all depends on the fact that there is a God, but saying it contradicts the Bible isn't much of a criticism, because the Bible is built on the same house of cards.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The Lord has but one Prophet who speaks for Him to the world, even though the twelve apostles and two counselors of the LDS Church are also Prophets, Seers and Revelators it is only the President of the LDS Church through whom the Lord speaks and who is referred to as the Prophet.

Lucifer deceives many by using his powers for good as well as evil, and seeks to confuse and imitate so that many are therefore not able to recognise the true Prophet of God from the deceivers.

With what do you propose to support this...opinion...of yours?

 

[RandFan]

This. One of the things that always -even when I was very small- bugged me about the Bible was the lack of common sense instructions. A few chapters about basic first aid would have saved how many lives and how much suffering?

We get, don't eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:12). As Feynman said, "religion is provincial". Never more advanced than the times.

 

[TheRedWorm]

The below quoted post does not seem to have been understood. Therefore I will clarify further.
The Spirit of a male is male. The Spirit of a female is female. In the rare occasion that the gender of the mortal body of a person is not known, then the gender of the Spiritual body is also not known while in mortality.

What about someone who is born geno- and pheno- typically male or female, but never feels comfortable in their born sex? I've known a few like that, and even a couple who have undergone surgery to change sexes. They were much happier after the surgery, so which body do they get, pre- or post- op?

 

[RandFan]

The below quoted post does not seem to have been understood. Therefore I will clarify further.
The Spirit of a male is male. The Spirit of a female is female. In the rare occasion that the gender of the mortal body of a person is not known, then the gender of the Spiritual body is also not known while in mortality.

Still doesn't answer the question. You are just repeating yourself.

 

[Janadele]

I am glad you are posting in this thread Pup Why has not your loving wife been able to bring you into the fold. You know how much it would mean to her.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Myriad,
It saddens me also the cruelty we find in our world. Our only consolation is that though at times it seems interminable, our time here is very short. It seems only yesterday when we look back upon our lives.

We chose to come to this earth to receive our mortal body, knowing the hardships which may befall us. Yet we confidently came, in order to progress through the eternities and receive an immortal resurrected body in which our Spiritual body will dwell.

Free agency to choose good or evil and therefore reap the consequences thereof is our trial. This must be allowed to be so for all, in order to enable judgement and rewards.

The sufferings and evils of the world have been brought about by the choices mankind have made.

The below quoted post does not seem to have been understood. Therefore I will clarify further.
The Spirit of a male is male. The Spirit of a female is female. In the rare occasion that the gender of the mortal body of a person is not known, then the gender of the Spiritual body is also not known while in mortality.

So are you saying the transgendered chose to be trapped between, neither fish nor fowl?
Or are you saying that 'god' lets them suffer, so that their rewards will be greater?

 

[Janadele]

Pre, and they have violated Eternal Law.

What about someone who is born geno- and pheno- typically male or female, but never feels comfortable in their born sex? I've known a few like that, and even a couple who have undergone surgery to change sexes. They were much happier after the surgery, so which body do they get, pre- or post- op?

 

[Richard Masters]

The below quoted post does not seem to have been understood. Therefore I will clarify further.
The Spirit of a male is male. The Spirit of a female is female. In the rare occasion that the gender of the mortal body of a person is not known, then the gender of the Spiritual body is also not known while in mortality.

Couldn't you have saved us 120 300 posts and elaborated earlier? It's absurd to complain that people don't understand you when you are deliberately vague.

In any case, you still didn't satisfactorily answer the questions posed to you. Can a hermaphrodite be sealed by the Mormon church in this life? Yes or no. Sounds like you are saying "nobody knows", so why not just say that instead of playing games with words?

I don't think you are ready to be honest with yourself, and much less with anyone here.

 

[jsfisher]

I am glad you are posting in this thread Pup Why has not your loving wife been able to bring you into the fold. You know how much it would mean to her.

Excuse me, what? Religious conviction is just an exercise in pleasing your spouse?

 

[TheRedWorm]

Pre, and they have violated Eternal Law.

Why? god created them that way, right? Wouldn't your dear and fluffy lord love his/her/its children exactly as he/she/it created them?