Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Acleron]

Have I ever said anything negative about the polio vaccine?
TheRedWorm




So of course you dredge up polio.


Polio and diphtheria and others are not normal childhood diseases. Mumps and measles and chicken pox and others are.

Your lack of knowledge is quite astounding.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Evidence, please.

A tiny cut on your Digitus Me'dius could result in the amputation of your entire arm or death. Certainly a vaccine is in order.

 

[dafydd]

A tiny cut on your Digitus Me'dius could result in the amputation of your entire arm or death. Certainly a vaccine is in order.

So no evidence then. Thread over, or are you going to continue to display your lack of medical knowledge and also continue to avoid answering questions?

 

[Arisia]

Mumps, measles and chicken pox still kill children every year. They are not innocuous childhood diseases, and they might actually get more deadly if vaccination rates don't go back to what they should be. I'm convinced we were this close to sending them, and many other vaccine-preventable diseases, the way of small pox, thereby reducing the number of vaccinations people would need to give their children in future generations. Isn't that what you want, Clayton?

 

[jdc324]

Measles: a deadly disease?

Mumps, measles and chicken pox still kill children every year. They are not innocuous childhood diseases, and they might actually get more deadly if vaccination rates don't go back to what they should be. I'm convinced we were this close to sending them, and many other vaccine-preventable diseases, the way of small pox, thereby reducing the number of vaccinations people would need to give their children in future generations. Isn't that what you want, Clayton?

No, no, they're completely harmless diseases. Isn't that right Clayton?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/international/measles-kills-children-of-anti-vaccination-sect-1-783227 "Measles kills children of anti-vaccination sect"

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5243a4.htm "Three children (aged 6 months, 4 years, and 10 years, respectively) died."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1022280/ "During 1988 through 1990, California experienced its worst measles epidemic in more than a decade, with 16,400 reported cases, 3,390 hospital admissions, and 75 deaths."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ja...andstill/2007/05/27/1180205052602.html?page=2 "In Japan, however, the government bowed to strong public pressure in 1994 by repealing laws that made childhood immunisations mandatory. In 2000 there were an estimated 200,000 cases of measles and 88 deaths."

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2000_08_09/en/index.html "As of 29 July 2000, the National Disease Surveillance Centre, Ireland has reported 1 376 cases of measles, including 2 deaths since 1 January 2000. Most of the cases occurred in the north Dublin city area."

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/07-050187.pdf "The two patients with encephalitis who died were aged 2 months and 2 years; the patient who survived was aged 19 years."

Countries: Zimbabwe, Italy, USA (California), Japan, Ireland, Germany. Time periods: 2009, 2002, 1998-90, 2000, 2000, 2006.

But apart from those deaths measles is just harmless. You just go to bed for a day or two and then you're fine. No need for a doctor. We knew that back in the 50s. I don't know why the medical profession hasn't caught up with us. We, the knowledgeable ones. Me and Clayton. We know that in spite of all the reports in recent years of deaths from measles it's really no big deal. We're not stupid like those sheeple who swallow propaganda. Oh no.

 

[godless dave]

A tiny cut on your Digitus Me'dius could result in the amputation of your entire arm or death. Certainly a vaccine is in order.

I was asking for evidence that measles and mumps weren't considered serious illnesses in the 1950s. Your response has nothing to do with that.

Gangrene is caused by bacterial infections, which, as you learned in grade school, can't generally be vaccinated against. Vaccines are for viruses.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Mumps, measles and chicken pox still kill children every year. They are not innocuous childhood diseases, and they might actually get more deadly if vaccination rates don't go back to what they should be. I'm convinced we were this close to sending them, and many other vaccine-preventable diseases, the way of small pox, thereby reducing the number of vaccinations people would need to give their children in future generations. Isn't that what you want, Clayton?

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

You can't say that a single aspirin is dangerous for children and at the same time advocate and insist an infant be pumped with 8 vaccines in one session.

Step back and think about it.

There are so many additional substances accompanying vaccines that the immune system must deal with and evacuate. The vaccine premise is simple. A weakened or dead virus signals the immune system to create antibodies to fight the virus and possible future encounters with it.



Don't you find it strange that parent after parent, year after year, says a week or so after the MMR shot their baby becomes autistic?

Don't you find it difficult to believe that all of medical science can't figure out what autistic toddlers worldwide have in common?

The problem isn't the vaccine concept. The problem is the accompanying substances. It should be obvious in 2012 that the more accompanying substances pumped in to a toddlers body the more dangerous the ever increasing child vaccine schedule becomes.

My first concern with vaccines was the frequency and the combo vaccines.
Now I see the foreign substances not the vaccine concept are the cause of autism and an increasingly medically dependent and sickly population.

 

[jdc324]

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

You can't say that a single aspirin is dangerous for children and at the same time advocate and insist an infant be pumped with 8 vaccines in one session.

Step back and think about it.

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reye's_syndrome#Aspirin "A potential increased risk of developing Reye's syndrome is one of the main reasons that aspirin has not been recommended for use in children and teenagers, the age group for which the risk of lasting serious effects is highest."

There are safer alternatives to aspirin, so aspirin is not recommended for use in children.

What is the safer alternative to vaccination Clayton?

Step back and think about it.

 

[godless dave]

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

You can't say that a single aspirin is dangerous for children and at the same time advocate and insist an infant be pumped with 8 vaccines in one session.

Sure you can. They're different chemicals. Different chemicals do different things and are harmful in different amounts.

Don't you find it strange that parent after parent, year after year, says a week or so after the MMR shot their baby becomes autistic?

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that that is happening?

Don't you find it difficult to believe that all of medical science can't figure out what autistic toddlers worldwide have in common?

Not at all. The human body is vastly complicated, and there's a lot medical scientists don't know.

The problem isn't the vaccine concept. The problem is the accompanying substances. It should be obvious in 2012 that the more accompanying substances pumped in to a toddlers body the more dangerous the ever increasing child vaccine schedule becomes.

That would depend on what those substances are, wouldn't it?

My first concern with vaccines was the frequency and the combo vaccines.
Now I see the foreign substances not the vaccine concept are the cause of autism and an increasingly medically dependent and sickly population.

Increasingly sickly? Got evidence for that?

 

[jdc324]

Don't you find it strange that parent after parent, year after year, says a week or so after the MMR shot their baby becomes autistic?

That wasn't even true in the case of the children in Wakefield's paper. Despite the paper claiming that all 12 children were “previously normal,” five had documented pre-existing developmental concerns.

Don't you find it difficult to believe that all of medical science can't figure out what autistic toddlers worldwide have in common?

Well, one thing they don't have in common is the vaccines they've received.

The problem isn't the vaccine concept. The problem is the accompanying substances. It should be obvious in 2012 that the more accompanying substances pumped in to a toddlers body the more dangerous the ever increasing child vaccine schedule becomes.

My first concern with vaccines was the frequency and the combo vaccines.
Now I see the foreign substances not the vaccine concept are the cause of autism and an increasingly medically dependent and sickly population.

Vaccines and autism: a tale of shifting hypotheses. It was the MMR. That link has been disproved? No, wait. I meant thimerosal. That too? Oh, er, multiple vaccinations. Not biologically plausible? Oh, um... Foreign substances. Which ones? What do you mean which ones? In what dose? Don't ask awkward questions or I may have to drop another hypothesis.

 

[crhkrebs]

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

You can't say that a single aspirin is dangerous for children and at the same time advocate and insist an infant be pumped with 8 vaccines in one session.

Yes you can. That's because of the correlation between ASA and Reye's Syndrome

Step back and think about it.

Good advice, Clayton. Try it sometime.

There are so many additional substances accompanying vaccines that the immune system must deal with and evacuate. The vaccine premise is simple. A weakened or dead virus signals the immune system to create antibodies to fight the virus and possible future encounters with it.

Sigh. The immune system doesn't evacuate anything.

Don't you find it strange that parent after parent, year after year, says a week or so after the MMR shot their baby becomes autistic?

They are mistaken. The epidemiology has shown that it is "observer bias". This has all been explained to you earlier.

Don't you find it difficult to believe that all of medical science can't figure out what autistic toddlers worldwide have in common?

I don't find it odd that our current state of medical science hasn't solved every medical problem yet, no. Actually they know that there is a genetic component and they know that there are certain environmental components, such as advanced age of both parents, in the development of ASD. This was also covered by me, earlier in this thread. They are narrowing in to the cause. It ain't the vaccine!

The problem isn't the vaccine concept. The problem is the accompanying substances. It should be obvious in 2012 that the more accompanying substances pumped in to a toddlers body the more dangerous the ever increasing child vaccine schedule becomes.

Unsupported pet theory of Clayton.

My first concern with vaccines was the frequency and the combo vaccines.
Now I see the foreign substances not the vaccine concept are the cause of autism and an increasingly medically dependent and sickly population.

You know nothing of the sort. No vaccines, nor their "foreign substances" cause autism. Isn't the entire idea behind a vaccine to expose an immune system to "foreign substance" in the first place? Youre being redundant. Finally, you surely mean longer living and healthier population.

Fixed all that for you.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Mumps, measles and chicken pox still kill children every year. They are not innocuous childhood diseases, and they might actually get more deadly if vaccination rates don't go back to what they should be.

So do infections. And child neglect.

Most deaths from childhood diseases are the result of unsanitary conditions and being undernourished.

If a parent sees a child tugging at their ear day after day for a couple of weeks and the child becomes deaf in that ear that's child neglect.

If an American has an undernourished child that gets the measles and dies. Did the childhood disease cause the child's death?

If there were 4 million cases of the measles and 500 deaths attributed to measles how many of those 4 million could have been undernourished or otherwise unhealthy?

.000125 %?

 

[TheRedWorm]

About time you (sort of) answer a direct question...

Anyway, you are wrong. Both my parents lived through the 50 and both feared a whole bunch of infectious diseases that we now vaccinate against. Granted, they both feared polio more than anything, just like people seem to fear cancer in the U.S., even though heart disease kills more people.

Now, on the subject of polio, how about you answer for the rest of the diseases that we currently vaccinate against. All of them, taken together, are surly more dangerous that autism will ever hope to be, don't you think?

Well?

 

[crhkrebs]

So do infections. And child neglect.

Most deaths from childhood diseases are the result of unsanitary conditions and being undernourished.

If a parent sees a child tugging at their ear day after day for a couple of weeks and the child becomes deaf in that ear that's child neglect.

If an American has an undernourished child that gets the measles and dies. Did the childhood disease cause the child's death?

If there were 4 million cases of the measles and 500 deaths attributed to measles how many of those 4 million could have been undernourished or otherwise unhealthy?

.000125 %?

Fighting childhood diseases though vaccination is important.
Fighting childhood hunger and malnutrition is important.
Fighting child abuse and neglect is important.

So what's your point?

 

[jdc324]

So do infections. And child neglect.

Most deaths from childhood diseases are the result of unsanitary conditions and being undernourished. ^{[citation needed]}
If a parent sees a child tugging at their ear day after day for a couple of weeks and the child becomes deaf in that ear that's child neglect.

If an American has an undernourished child that gets the measles and dies. Did the childhood disease cause the child's death?

If there were 4 million cases of the measles and 500 deaths attributed to measles how many of those 4 million could have been undernourished or otherwise unhealthy?

.000125 %?

Measles kills around 1 in 3600 in developed countries (generally estimated at 1 in 2500-5000). If there were 4 million cases, then you'd expect around 1100 deaths.

If you read the links I provided earlier, you will find this: "In southern Africa measles normally kills about 10 per cent of cases but it is much worse when combined with malnutrition."

If malnutrition were common in developed countries the mortality rate wouldn't be around 1 in 3600. It would be much higher. 1 in 3600 is the rate in healthy, well-nourished populations with good medical care. Those 1 in 3600 who die from measles are not malnourished and do not always have underlying diseases or immune system problems (if you read reports on measles deaths from, say, the HPA you will note that they comment on things that are relevant, such as whether the deceased was immunodeficient - deaths from acute measles are often in otherwise healthy individuals).

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

Clayton,

What do I have to do to get you to answer my question?

You have implied earlier that you think a diagnosis of autism is similar to a death sentence.

I will try to keep hyperbole out of this as much as possible, so here goes:

Would I (who has a diagnosis of autism) be better off dead?

I know that this is not the same question I asked before (not that you'd remember, or else you might have answered it already), but I think it is essentially the same.

Now, be a good boy and answer it.

Please?

 

[abaddon]

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

You can't say that a single aspirin is dangerous for children and at the same time advocate and insist an infant be pumped with 8 vaccines in one session.

Step back and think about it.

By that logic, a bottle of cyanide is no more harmful than a bottle of beer, or a bottle of beer is as harmful as a bottle of cyanide.

There are so many additional substances accompanying vaccines that the immune system must deal with and evacuate. The vaccine premise is simple. A weakened or dead virus signals the immune system to create antibodies to fight the virus and possible future encounters with it.

Saline is a component of vaccines, comprising Sodium, an element which is explosive in contact with water (60% of the human body), and Chlorine, a toxic gas.

Oh, the horror of it all.

Don't you find it strange that parent after parent, year after year, says a week or so after the MMR shot their baby becomes autistic?

Nope, because that is when autism is typically identified, vaccines or not. If vaccines were eliminated, autism would still be typically be detected at the same developmental time and you would have to find a new scapegoat.

Don't you find it difficult to believe that all of medical science can't figure out what autistic toddlers worldwide have in common?

There are many diseases which have little or no medical remediation. That's why there is so much medical research.

The problem isn't the vaccine concept. The problem is the accompanying substances. It should be obvious in 2012 that the more accompanying substances pumped in to a toddlers body the more dangerous the ever increasing child vaccine schedule becomes.

Really? What substances, and what effects?

My first concern with vaccines was the frequency and the combo vaccines.
Now I see the foreign substances not the vaccine concept are the cause of autism and an increasingly medically dependent and sickly population.

Vaccines save millions of lives each year. Both of mine had the full schedule, and are bright as two of the shiniest buttons. Not a single bad effect from the vaccines, nor do any of the parents in my by now extensive circle of fellow parents have anything untoward to report.

But wait. It gets worse, their cousins are approx 10 years ahead. I can happily report thousands of cases of vaccination, yet none of autism. This is a large enough sample to be significant, statistically speaking.

 

[Giordano]

So do infections. And child neglect.

.000125 %?

Mumps, measles and chickenpox are infections!
And not vaccinating your children against them is child neglect.

 

[frenat]

What I want is for common sense to prevail.

Then why do you persist with the anti-vaccer nonsense?

 

[Giordano]

Most deaths from childhood diseases are the result of unsanitary conditions and being undernourished.

If a parent sees a child tugging at their ear day after day for a couple of weeks and the child becomes deaf in that ear that's child neglect.

If an American has an undernourished child that gets the measles and dies. Did the childhood disease cause the child's death?

The most common childhood diseases do not require unsanitary conditions to spread. They were quite prevalent in the USA long after we became one of the most sanitary nations on the planet, and only declined after vaccines were introduced.

What do you think a doctor could do for a child with a measles infection of their auditory system if their parents brought them in at that point?

If an undernourished child caught measles and died, it was measles that killed them. Otherwise they would still be alive. If an undernourished child was shot to death, didn't the gun cause their death?

But really Clayton, this and your other recent posts here are long discredited arguments that you have refused to defend when asked for evidence. Yet you repeat them over and over again. Do you really think no one notices?