LDS

Status
Not open for further replies.
Janadele said:
Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.
Click to expand...

The point is, most here consider the LDS beliefs and teachings to be fabrications. That's why you're being asked for evidence to support your beliefs. So far, you haven't presented anything of evidentiary value.
 
1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later.



2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over.




I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus.



Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

-Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time.

Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

-Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's.




Joseph Smith really was an ignoramus. How ironic that he called the angel Moroni!
 
Last edited:
Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Pup said:
If someone names a behavior that's currently forbidden by God, apparently you have a way of knowing whether it's an unchanging eternal principle, or something that could be changed by revelation.

How does one know? What's the scriptural basis that one can use to separate things into those categories?
Click to expand...
 
Well right. A simple question then.
What is it about LDS beliefs that makes them true as opposed to every single other religion on earth that claims the same?
How did YOU Janadele decide 'this one!'?
 
Janadele said:
Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...

My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.
 
Janadele said:
No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint Scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the LDS Church.
Click to expand...

Would you like to comment on the many mistakes that Smith made when he wrote the book? The ''Eternal Truth'' is riddled with inaccuracies. Doesn't that give you pause?
 
Janadele said:
Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...

Why were the laws presented by such an obvious and shabby liar? You'd think a god would pick someone with at least a little integrity to pass on these laws. Of course this god entity could maybe come and deliver the message himself/herself. That would seem a better plan that entrusting such an important mission to a fraud.
 
dafydd said:
Mark Twain called the Book Of Mormon ''chloroform in print''. He was right. I tried to read it and it is the most boring work of fiction ever written.
Click to expand...

It has its moments. Nephi for example is a prize idiot, constantly screwing up and losing the loyalty of his family. He's easily the single most inept prophet in the entirety of all Judeo-Christian scriptures. His section reads like "Gilligan the Prophet" as played by Jerry Lewis.

Are there any mainstream Mormons who seriously discuss Nephi's chronic incompetence and use it for theological discussion?

Janadele said:
The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
Click to expand...

That assertion is demonstrably false. The very existence of nuclear decay and the nuclear power we can derive form it proves the assertion false. More to the point, the ratios of existing elements is consistent with what we know about the fusion of various elements inside of a star. The book "The Disappearing Spoon" has a very easy to understand writeup of this for laymen.

Dinwar said:
Where?

That's not sarcastic, by the way. I know that decapods existed since the Mesozoic because I can point you to rock units of Mesozoic age that contain decapods. I found them myself. So I can substantiate my claim. Can you do the same? Is there some place where the Eternal Gospel could be located in, say, 5,000 BC?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, the golden plates were brought to the Americas, were lost and the "true" gospel was buried until Smith found the plates and translated them using a magic scrying hat.

ShadowSot said:
In discussion on another forum, Janadelle showed herself to be unable or unwilling to attempt to provide answers that were in any way her opinion.
All that she'll provide is information available directly from the LDS website.
Hermaphrodites are not addressed on the site, so she has no answer.
Click to expand...

Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing.
 
Last edited:
Mashuna said:
The point is, most here consider the LDS beliefs and teachings to be fabrications. That's why you're being asked for evidence to support your beliefs. So far, you haven't presented anything of evidentiary value.
Click to expand...

That's part of why she was eventually banned from the SGU forum. The specific chain of events is amusing but ultimately it wasn't the plagiarism or lying about the mods that got her booted, but her refusal to actually engage in discussion. She refused to address any criticism beyond attacking the source of the criticism as being anti-Mormon. I don't think she ever gave a theological answerer that wasn't plagiarized or paraphrased from an official LDS source, or at least one that towed the official LDS line.

I'd hoped she would turn over a new leaf and start engaging people in actual discussion. I wanted to see her take the lesson of being booted from the SGU Forum, accept personal responsibility for the poor communication skills that got her booted and try to change.
 
What is the Mormon version of why Christians don't have to keep Kosher?

How does the Mormon church justify following the Leviticus ban on homosexuality but not the other Leviticus purity laws?

1president+bartlett.jpg
 
Last edited:
Janadele said:
Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.
Click to expand...

Why does the Book of Mormon sound so much like Elizabethan English since it's supposed to be a translation of Reformed Egyptian?
 
"The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet."-Mark Twain.
 
Janadele said:
No that is not the plain truth of the matter... fact is I would have to write a book to do so. Keep to one single topic at a time :)
Click to expand...

I have no sympathy for you. At any point in this conversation you could have (and still can) say "Hey, you know, this is really complicated stuff--so I'm going to focus on X for now. Here's what I think the Mormon stance on X actually is." That would allow you to focus on a single topic instead of the evasions you're currently doing, while still demonstrating a willingness to actually discuss things, something that's currently missing from your posts.
 
Janadele said:
Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...

But according to LDS doctrine, individuals can't receive revelation that would affect the entire church, such as "X is an enternal truth but Y is subject to future revelation." That's what you're doing--choosing what's X and what's Y and announcing it to everyone, without scriptural backing.

For example, according to LDS doctrine, a father could say that God revealed to him that his child should be homeschooled, because he has stewardship over his child and that's the kind of thing God might reveal to him. But God wouldn't say, "your wife should receive the priesthood," without also giving the revelation through the prophet, because that affects the policies of the whole church. Other members would have the right to ignore that message and say that it wasn't from God, while an obedient child should accept that God told her father how she should be educated.

The above is pretty solid LDS doctrine, as far as I understand. For example: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j...toid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

What you're saying affects the whole church. Unless the prophet, speaking as a prophet, has said that the ban on homosexual acts or marriage will never be lifted, I think, according to church doctrine, such a statement from an individual member could be ignored as not necessarily an accurate reflection of God's intentions.

I would have thought the standard, doctrine-based LDS answer to: "Will the church ever approve of gay marriage?" would be: "We don't know, but if God wants us to, he will reveal it through the prophet"--leaving open the possibility.

Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation.

I wonder if this is a case where the cultural aspect of the church outweighs the doctrine-based aspect, and the idea of gay couples being married in the temple is just too squicky for conservative church members to contemplate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom