Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Newtons Bit]

Only if you are being a pedant.

He made a deal to get out of it. Do you disagree with that??

You claimed he took a plea. He did not plead guilty to anything. He does not have an assault or resisting arrest crime on his record.

 

[bookworm]

So let's take a look at this.

1) The neighborhood has has a few break-ins over the past year.

2) Trayvon Martin was walking down the street in the same neighborhood.

Therefore, Trayvon Martin can be reasonably suspected of breaking into a home, or of planning to do so.

That doesn't seem logical to me - there's no actual connection between "walking down the street" and "burglar". One may as well claim ZImmerman was suspicious because he was driving an SUV.

(and to be clear, "wearing a hoodie on a rainy winter evening" isn't much to go by, either.)

Liken it to witch hunts. Once people get scared they see the bogeyman everywhere.

 

[Dan O.]

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman’s vehicle^[1] and asked why he was following him^[2]. Zimmerman denied following the youth^[3] and rolled up the car window^[4]. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle^[5].

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ayvons-death/2012/03/28/gIQA6MKhhS_story.html

Correction, this was told to Tracy Martin two days after the incident, by the detectives.

Quoting Tracy from the same article: “That was bull”.

Tracy may not have known the fact at the time but he knew he was being fed a fictitious story.

1. The only time Trayvon approached Zimmerman's vehicle was when George was parked at the clubhouse and made the recorded call to the police NEN. In that call George says he's coming towards him.
2. There is no sound of Trayvon on the police recording of George's NEN call.
3. In the call, Zimmerman was asked by the dispatcher if he was following him to which Zimmerman replied "yes".
4. In the police interview, Zimmerman was asked specifically about the window at the time Trayvon walked by and Zimmerman said it was always up.
5. From before the time Trayvon passes George at the clubhouse (1:24), runs down Twin Tree Lane (2:08) and into the cut through with George following, parking at the corner and opening his door with the distinctive chime (2:14) and is out of the car in the wind cursing (2:20), we have an uninterrupted recording in which only 56 seconds have passed.

And with that, you still haven't shown where the "circling" came from or more importantly, why it hit the media so heavily in the first week of May.

 

[Noztradamus]

Exactly. He had a cell phone in his hand. Sorry, I'm just not buying that continuing his conversation with his girlfriend was more important than getting away from that guy he was so "afraid" of. No way.

He had been eyeballed in a suspicious manner from a truck, so he ran, then he thought he had managed to get away, until he realized the oddball had followed and found him.

The one time my car was followed by a darkened car on a country road, I put some distance between us. It was before cell phones but when I reached the town I could have driven to the police station. Instead I turned into a side lane and made sure I was still not being followed, then I went home. It seemed like the easiest thing to do at the time.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, simply walking down the steet ..

This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something.
It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
...he was just staring ...looking at all the houses.

Wait... you're quoting George Zimmerman as if what he said is to be taken as fact?

Why would you do that? And why would you expect anyone to take it seriously?

Even you admit aspects of his story are unbelievable, and yet you post an uncorroborated claim of his like it's some kind of slam dunk to end the debate.

Priceless.

And Martin wasn't on drugs, so Zimmerman's ability to judge the behavior of others is already called into question before we even get to the issue of his honesty.

And then this bit:

For years one of the cornerstones of Neighborhood Watch has been the reporting of suspicious activities and individuals to the police.... What exactly is a “suspicious activity”?A stranger loitering in your neighborhood or a vehicle cruising the streets repeatedly; someone peering into cars or windows

What of any of those behaviors did Zimmerman claim Martin was exhibiting?

Therefor, TM can be considered to be acting suspiciously, by any reasonable neighborhood watch definition.

Yes, Martin can be considered to have been acting suspiciously because George Zimmerman said so in accordance with none of the elements that the neighborhood watch rules define as a suspicious person, and despite the fact that all the actual evidence shows is that he was walking home from the store.

That is some crackerjack deductive reasoning right there.

Maybe it doesn't seem logical to you because you are too busy being dishonest in your descriptions about what happened.

I think the lack of logic might come from the fact that it's a bunch of nonsense.

 

[This is The End]

He does not have an assault or resisting arrest crime on his record.

Yes he does. I linked to a copy of his record from the Orange County, FL Circuit Court Clerk of the Court Records.

Unless you perhaps meant to add the words "conviction for" to that sentence? Just like I made the mistake of calling the deal he made a legal term for a different type of deal.

He was arrested for it.

He has the charges for it on his records as the records page clearly shows. It was initially a felony resisting an officer with violence/battery on a law enforcement officer. It was reduced to misdemeanor resisting an officer without violence.

He has the deal he made to get out of it on his record.

By the very nature of agreeing to enter the pretrial-diversion program for first time offenders Z admits having done it. If you disagree then answer this question: Why would he enter the pretrial-diversion program if he didn't do it?

Also, there were multiple witnesses to it. It happened.

I want to know your motive for hammering home that he technically does not have a conviction for the incident that no one is disputing happened?

Downplaying the proven fact that Z became profane and tried to push an undercover officer, who we know had made it clear to Z that he was an undercover officer, is almost as weird as those that tried to downplay Z molesting that girl several times over the course of 10 years.

Did you see the quote I posted from Checkmite? Please refer to post #4599 in this thread.

You claimed he took a plea.

Which I wholeheartedly regret. It seems to have given you a foothold to try and obscure the fact that Z did make a deal to get out from under those charges.

The record is very clear that he made a deal. That is not in question.

I made the horrible mistake of calling it a technical legal term for another type of deal. You have made it very clear that I did that. I sincerely regret it.

 

[johnny karate]

I agree with you that it is a more extraordinary story that TM was tying to kill GZ than simply in a fight with him. Ii's certainly possible that GZ may have embellished his story, whether intentionally or not, in order to help justify his shooting TM. More specifically, the "you are going to die tonight" part. But just because it's more extraordinary doesn't mean it didn't happen. Perhaps TM flew into a murderous rage ?

So I'm confused... first you were saying this:

Yes, we should absolutely consider that TM attacking GZ may have been an act of teenage stupidity. Because the facts of the case agree with that interpretation.

I don't think anyone but you has made the claim of the attack being a brutal cold-blooded murder attempt

And in a fight, no one would ever say something like 'you're dead' or 'I'm going to kill you' ?? Whether the actual intention was to murder the other person or not ?

And now you are saying this:

I agree with you that it is a more extraordinary story that TM was tying to kill GZ than simply in a fight with him.

...

But just because it's more extraordinary doesn't mean it didn't happen. Perhaps TM flew into a murderous rage ?

So which is it? Was it an attack done out of teenage stupidity rather than a murder attempt?

Or was it actually a murder attempt fueled by a "murderous rage"?

You seem to be all over the place.

GZ is injured in numerous places, TM is not. That certainly implies TM was beating or had beaten GZ.

Zimmerman had a broken nose as a result of a single punch. Aside from that, he had two small cuts on the back of his head and some minor abrasions.

What about those injuries do you find to be conclusive evidence of a beating as opposed to a fall and/or a scuffle?

And numerous witness statement that TM was on top of GZ, and the one that he was either beating him MMA style, or at least keeping him from getting away based on his updated statement.

That witness said Martin was either punching Zimmerman or restraining him.

Zimmerman said Martin was repeatedly slamming his head into the concrete. No mention of any punching after the initial one that knocked him to the ground. And Zimmerman did not have any injuries consistent with being repeatedly punched. Nor did Martin have any injuries on his hands consistent with someone who was repeatedly punching another person.

That seems to fairly conclusively rule out punching.

So from the witness account, that leaves us with Martin merely restraining Zimmerman. No mention of Martin repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head into the concrete.

As a matter of fact, none of the "numerous" witnesses who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman reported seeing him repeatedly slam Zimmerman's head into the concrete, as Zimmerman claims.

I look forward to seeing the explanation you offer for that. I'm sure it will be very entertaining. Perhaps it will involve more "unintentional embellishment".

 

[Dan O.]

In the walk though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X_2NeMrGCvg#t=370s

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. George invented the circling his car story the day after the shooting (or whenever that walkthrough was done). It's amazing to watch George packing in the lies so soon.

According to the label on that video, The walkthrough was released on June 26th. That's several weeks after the circling story hit the news fans. It's possible that the detectives passed this to Tracy but doubtful given that they were already telling George that the timing didn't work.

 

[johnny karate]

Please. Haven't we been over this numerous times ?

People intimately familiar with case say they don't believe race played any part. Why should we listen to your opinion on race ?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0712/FBI-report-No-evidence-George-Zimmerman-is-racist

After interviewing 30 people familiar with George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain charged with killing African-American teenager Trayvon Martin, FBI agents found no evidence that the shooting was driven by racial bias or animus.
...
Even one of the most skeptical local investigators with the Sanford, Fla., police department, Chris Serino, suggested to the FBI that Zimmerman followed Trayvon “based on his attire,” not “skin color,”

Who said anything about racial bias or animus?

No need to put words in my mouth to assume a position of righteous indignation.

The simple fact of the matter was that the suspects for the previous break-ins were young black males, and Trayvon Martin was a young black male.

It's a reasonable conclusion to draw that Martin's race played a role in Zimmerman's suspicion of him because it fit the description of the other suspects.

And it's certainly a lot more reasonable than your laughable assertion that we believe Martin was acting suspiciously simply because Zimmerman said he was acting suspiciously.

 

[This is The End]

He had been eyeballed in a suspicious manner from a truck, so he ran, then he thought he had managed to get away, until he realized the oddball had followed and found him.

The one time my car was followed by a darkened car on a country road, I put some distance between us. It was before cell phones but when I reached the town I could have driven to the police station. Instead I turned into a side lane and made sure I was still not being followed, then I went home. It seemed like the easiest thing to do at the time.

Spot on post.

Those saying M was acting strangely must neither have been in that situation nor had a girlfriend on the phone as a teenager.

 

[leftysergeant]

Liken it to witch hunts. Once people get scared they see the bogeyman everywhere.

Especially, people who have a few screws loose to begin with.

 

[leftysergeant]

You claimed he took a plea. He did not plead guilty to anything. He does not have an assault or resisting arrest crime on his record.

He was sent to anger management, which will often get a continuance and eventual dismissal of a lot of violent misdemeanor charges. I personally think that the idea sucks, especially in a country where it is possible to get a CCW card.

 

[sgtbaker]

Quoting Tracy from the same article: “That was bull”.

Tracy may not have known the fact at the time but he knew he was being fed a fictitious story.

1. The only time Trayvon approached Zimmerman's vehicle was when George was parked at the clubhouse and made the recorded call to the police NEN. In that call George says he's coming towards him.
2. There is no sound of Trayvon on the police recording of George's NEN call.
3. In the call, Zimmerman was asked by the dispatcher if he was following him to which Zimmerman replied "yes".
4. In the police interview, Zimmerman was asked specifically about the window at the time Trayvon walked by and Zimmerman said it was always up.
5. From before the time Trayvon passes George at the clubhouse (1:24), runs down Twin Tree Lane (2:08) and into the cut through with George following, parking at the corner and opening his door with the distinctive chime (2:14) and is out of the car in the wind cursing (2:20), we have an uninterrupted recording in which only 56 seconds have passed.

And with that, you still haven't shown where the "circling" came from or more importantly, why it hit the media so heavily in the first week of May.

How is linking an article quoting Tracy Martin in saying that's what he was told, not showing where it came from? We were discussing it long before Zimmerman's statements were released. IIRC, it hit the news so much harder much later because Zimmerman's statements were released at that time. l8 linked the walk through, which occurred long before he had an attorney... remember, the only thing I was arguing against was your theory that Trayvon walking around the car was cooked up by his attorney.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Quoting Tracy from the same article: “That was bull”.

Tracy may not have known the fact at the time but he knew believed he was being fed a fictitious story.

Fixed that.

Tracy Martin wasn't there, but his story demonstrates what he was told about the circling , prior to GZ having an attorney. I thought you wanted an earlier reference to the 'circling story', so there one is.

1. The only time Trayvon approached Zimmerman's vehicle was when George was parked at the clubhouse and made the recorded call to the police NEN. In that call George says he's coming towards him.
2. There is no sound of Trayvon on the police recording of George's NEN call.
3. In the call, Zimmerman was asked by the dispatcher if he was following him to which Zimmerman replied "yes".
4. In the police interview, Zimmerman was asked specifically about the window at the time Trayvon walked by and Zimmerman said it was always up.
5. From before the time Trayvon passes George at the clubhouse (1:24), runs down Twin Tree Lane (2:08) and into the cut through with George following, parking at the corner and opening his door with the distinctive chime (2:14) and is out of the car in the wind cursing (2:20), we have an uninterrupted recording in which only 56 seconds have passed.

And with that, you still haven't shown where the "circling" came from or more importantly, why it hit the media so heavily in the first week of May.

I believe may was when the news had finally seen the walk-through video, which was released shortly thereafter.

 

[johnny karate]

Liken it to witch hunts. Once people get scared they see the bogeyman everywhere.

So you believe Zimmerman's suspicion of Martin was rooted in his own fear and paranoia rather than anything Martin was actually doing?

 

[johnny karate]

He had been eyeballed in a suspicious manner from a truck, so he ran, then he thought he had managed to get away, until he realized the oddball had followed and found him.

The one time my car was followed by a darkened car on a country road, I put some distance between us. It was before cell phones but when I reached the town I could have driven to the police station. Instead I turned into a side lane and made sure I was still not being followed, then I went home. It seemed like the easiest thing to do at the time.

Yeah, apparently Martin either had to be in a state of complete and unrelenting fear, or he wasn't afraid at all.

It's been very entertaining watching some people jump through hoops in order to contort Martin's actions and behavior into their preconceived notions of what took place.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Wait... you're quoting George Zimmerman as if what he said is to be taken as fact?

Why would you do that? And why would you expect anyone to take it seriously?

Even you admit aspects of his story are unbelievable, and yet you post an uncorroborated claim of his like it's some kind of slam dunk to end the debate.

Priceless.

Yes, that is exactly what it is. A slam dunk end to the debate of whether TM was acting suspiciously.

There is a claim that TM was 'just walking down the street' by mumbles. Where does mumbles get this information ??? The only information we have about what TM was doing is GZ description to the NEN operator.

If it makes you feel better to discount everything GZ said to the NEN operator, feel free. It won't move the discussion forward, but whatever.

And Martin wasn't on drugs, so Zimmerman's ability to judge the behavior of others is already called into question before we even get to the issue of his honesty.

Oh, did they release the full toxicology report ? Oh wait, they didn't. So you actually don't know if TM was actually on drugs at the time or not.

And then this bit:
What of any of those behaviors did Zimmerman claim Martin was exhibiting?

Loitering, peeing at the houses. As described, TM behavior fit into the nebulous description of suspicious behavior that neighborhood watches admonish you to call the police to report.

Do you honestly believe GZ didn't call the NEN because he found TM to be behaving suspiciously ? Let's hear your alternate theory of what really happened....

Yes, Martin can be considered to have been acting suspiciously because George Zimmerman said so in accordance with none of the elements that the neighborhood watch rules define as a suspicious person, and despite the fact that all the actual evidence shows is that he was walking home from the store.

http://blog.ctnews.com/crimewatch/2011/12/21/know-how-to-report-suspicious-activities/
What exactly is a “suspicious activity”?
Suspicious activities can refer to incidents, events, individuals or circumstances that seem unusual or out of place.

Which actual evidence shows that walking home form the store is all he was doing ??? That must be some pretty powerful evidence.

That is some crackerjack deductive reasoning right there.

So your claim is that although GZ clearly thought TM was acting suspicioulsy, peering about, putting his hand in his waistband, in the side yard of a house, that actually TM was doing none of those things. And you know this how ?

I think the lack of logic might come from the fact that it's a bunch of nonsense.

I agree with you, Mumbles post is a bunch of nonsense.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, that is exactly what it is. A slam dunk end to the debate of whether TM was acting suspiciously.

That's a very silly thing to say. You have no idea whether or not Zimmerman was being truthful or accurate. It's entirely possible Martin was doing nothing wrong or unusual, and Zimmerman simply overreacted at the presence of a black kid he didn't recognize. Because no corroborating evidence exists that Martin was doing anything more than walking home from the store.

There is a claim that TM was 'just walking down the street' by mumbles. Where does mumbles get this information ???

From George Zimmerman, who said Martin was both "walking around" and "casually walking". And then there's the fact that he was on his way home from the store.

The only information we have about what TM was doing is GZ description to the NEN operator.

We know Martin was walking home from the store. No evidence exists he was doing anything else other than the word of an overzealous neighborhood watch guy. None.

If it makes you feel better to discount everything GZ said to the NEN operator, feel free. It won't move the discussion forward, but whatever.

Neither will automatically believing everything Zimmerman says. I prefer to examine each thing he says on its own merits and compare it to other evidence. So far, Zimmerman's claim that Martin was acting suspiciously exists in a complete vacuum.

Oh, did they release the full toxicology report ? Oh wait, they didn't. So you actually don't know if TM was actually on drugs at the time or not.

Fair enough. We'll see what the full toxicology report says when it is released.

Loitering, peeing at the houses. As described, TM behavior fit into the nebulous description of suspicious behavior that neighborhood watches admonish you to call the police to report.

Zimmerman did not say Martin was loitering. And "walking around" =/= "loitering".

Also, the neighborhood watch guidelines you quoted said "peering into windows or cars". Martin was doing neither. Zimmerman described Martin as "looking at houses". Hardly the same thing, and it was rather dishonest of you to try to conflate them.

So again, Zimmerman describes Martin exhibiting no specific behavior that could be described as suspicious. He basically just says Martin looks suspicious because he looks suspicious.

Do you honestly believe GZ didn't call the NEN because he found TM to be behaving suspiciously ? Let's hear your alternate theory of what really happened....

Zimmerman sees a young black male he does not recognize in a neighborhood that recently had a spate of break-ins by young black males. He calls the police, and perhaps embellishes a bit (as you theorize he is prone to do) in order to ensure a prompt response from a police force with which he is dissatisfied.

Simple, straight-forward, and fits the facts and what we know about Zimmerman. And best of all, it doesn't require us to manufacture wild, unsubstantiated stories about a boy walking home from the store being on drugs or perhaps plotting some kind of crime.

Which actual evidence shows that walking home form the store is all he was doing ??? That must be some pretty powerful evidence.

It is, actually.

We know he left his home to purchase snacks.

We know he was at the store and purchased snacks.

We know he was found with nothing more than those snacks on his person when he was shot on his way home.

Anything more requires evidence to the contrary. Until any is provided, what the evidence shows is that Martin was walking home from the store, and nothing more.

So your claim is that although GZ clearly thought TM was acting suspicioulsy, peering about, putting his hand in his waistband, in the side yard of a house, that actually TM was doing none of those things. And you know this how ?

"Acting suspiciously" is a judgment call. It's not an objective observation, especially in light of Zimmerman's complete lack of specifics as to what exactly Martin was doing that was so suspicious.

Besides "peering about", of course. Everyone knows "peering about" is the most nefarious of activities.

 

[Mumbles]

Yes, that is exactly what it is. A slam dunk end to the debate of whether TM was acting suspiciously.

There is a claim that TM was 'just walking down the street' by mumbles. Where does mumbles get this information ??? The only information we have about what TM was doing is GZ description to the NEN operator.

If it makes you feel better to discount everything GZ said to the NEN operator, feel free. It won't move the discussion forward, but whatever.

Since you decided to call me "dishonest" through shoddy reasoning, and thought it was actually a good idea to make me an example, let's discuss this fully.

The first piece of evidence that Martin was walking home from the store, is the word of his family. According to them, he received permission from his father to walk to a local 7-1 to buy snacks. And we do have footage from the local 7-11, showing Martin buying snacks from the store. Most likely, these snacks were the same Arizona drink and Skittles that were found on his body. So, this is verified.

The second, of course, is Zimmerman's police recording. As you noted, Zimmerman noted that Martin was "walking around, looking about" and "looking at houses". This is perfectly in line with a guy walking down the street. Despite your assertion, this is not a sign that he was "loitering", or "looking into cars or windows". As Karate noted, your assertion that this is, in and of itself suspicious, is nonsense.

The third piece of evidence, is Zimmerman's own re-enactment, which you kindly linked to. Note that, beginning at roughly 1:45 in the video you linked to, Zimmerman notes that Martin was standing near a common entrance point to the neighborhood. He then states, again, that Martin was walking down the street, and looking around. He eventually notes that Martin began looking at his car, in addition to looking at the houses, and that Martin briefly stopped walking. He then states (before his absurd "circled my car" thing") that Martin walked down Retreat View Circle, and down Twin Trees Lane - which is in the direction of Martin's residence. Again, this verifies the statements of Martin's family.

There's another interesting thing in this third piece of evidence. Zimmerman claims that he cannot recognize Martin, and yet, in his own police recording, he is initially unsure of Martin's skin color. If he doesn't even know what Martin's skin color is, how could he possibly attempt to recognize him? And for that matter, since most of the local witnesses had no idea who Zimmerman was, why should we assume that Zimmerman is familiar with all of the local residents?

In any case, the fourth piece of evidence is DeeDee's statement. In this, she claims that Martin was walking home from the store, and briefly took cover from the rain. He then tells her that he is walking home, that he sees a strage, creepy man (Zimmerman) staring at him, that he briefly ran, and that he was surprised to see this same strange man "right by [his] ass."

I doubt that you'll give a useful answer, but do you have any evidence to show that Martin was doing anything other than walking home from the local 7-11 when Zimmerman decided that he was "suspicious"?

Oh, did they release the full toxicology report ? Oh wait, they didn't. So you actually don't know if TM was actually on drugs at the time or not.

Do you have any reason for us to think that there's some "full toxicology report" that has been hidden, or that it would contain...well, anything of interest?

Loitering, peeing at the houses. As described, TM behavior fit into the nebulous description of suspicious behavior that neighborhood watches admonish you to call the police to report.

Again, what I find interesting is the incoherent view of what makes a person "suspicious". Looking around while walking down the street is suspicious, but staring at a particular person is not, following someone in a car is not, and getting out of a car to run after a person is also not. Where I grew up, pa teen male walking down the street was to be treated as a possible threat - but a person who got out of a car to chase you was a definite threat. I find the idea that looking around is suspicious, but abandoning safety to run after someone isn't, to be bizarre. In fact, I'd like to see some justification for it.

Do you honestly believe GZ didn't call the NEN because he found TM to be behaving suspiciously ? Let's hear your alternate theory of what really happened....

I won't speak for Johnny Karate, but my personal view is that George Zimmerman is an idiot. He may well have found Martin to be suspicious, based on whatever goofball biases he had (and racial bias is a clear possibility), but in any event, his actions in his own police recording were clearly stupid.

So your claim is that although GZ clearly thought TM was acting suspicioulsy, peering about, putting his hand in his waistband, in the side yard of a house, that actually TM was doing none of those things. And you know this how ?

So, let's discuss this as well.

Zimmerman's quote, both in his police call, and in his walkthrough, make no mention of Martin actually putting his hand into his waistband as some sort of intimidating action. Instead, Zimmerman notes that Martin "has his hand in his waistband", so as far as we know, he had it there all along. And in any event, if Martin did decide to pretend to have a weapon, why would Zimmerman then jump out of his car and run after him? "Hey, that guy may have a gun, I should chase him!"

And again, I must note the incoherent view of suspicion. Martin putting his hand in his waistband from a distance (even if we assume this is the case) is suspicious, but Zimmerman digging in his pockets after coming within swinging distance of the guy he decided to run after is perfectly innocent, and certainly merited no action on Martin's part, according to Zimmerman's defenders. And again, this makes no sense.

 

[leftysergeant]

If that fat little psycopath had half the powers of observation that he claims to have, he would have noticed that Martin was, for most of that time, on the phone. If you are casing a house for a burglary, it is standard operating procedure to keep your mouth shut and LISTEN for sounds within the premeses you are thinking of burglarizing.

Z would have to be even more dim-witted than I already think him to be to see anything suspicious about a teenager on his cell phone.