Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

Wasn't that the story that Serino told Tracey Martin, the day after the shooting?

There was a video of that. As I recall Serino indicated that George was parked closer to the west end of that road closer to the mailboxes. That makes Serino's information suspect. I don't remember talk of circling the car in that video. If someone has a link to that video we can review it again. The other thing to review is the source of the story coming out in early May that sparked so much interest on the circling.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Yes, but he was charged with it, and he took a plea deal.

I don't even know if that is correct. I see no conviction or plea recorded in the country data. Also, in GZ's own words:

“I was arrested in July of 2005 for assault on a law enforcement officer and resisting arrest with violence. Both charges were immediately dropped to resisting arrest without violence, and then dropped all together.

“I was in an altercation with an undercover officer that was taking part in an ATF sting for underage drinking in UCF. He never told me he was an officer and assaulted me first. Shortly after that, in September 2005, the same unit was conducting a sting at UCF and an officer was killed by an OPD officer because he discharged his weapon and did not identify himself.

Source

It's a strange story, but one that appears to check out.

Though not an actual federal ATF agent, the officer worked undercover for the State Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco. On the day he was shot and killed by OPD, he was behaving erratically, unbecoming of a police officer, and in a manner entirely consistent with GZ's claims.

 

[Dan O.]

Wasn't that the story that Serino told Tracey Martin, the day after the shooting?

I listened through Serino's interviews with Zimmerman again. There is nothing about circling his car. In fact, it turns out that the only time Trayvon passes George is when George is parked at the clubhouse. George was following Trayvon from his truck as they went down Twin Tree Lane then got out of his truck and continued to follow Trayvon down the path between the houses.

Another tidbit I picked up from those interviews is that at the time of the encounter George had in his hand only the flashlight that was not working.

 

[bookworm]

There's still the problem that Martin had done nothing suspicious that Zimmerman had seen. Again, Zimmerman has repeatedly stated that he was suspicious of Martin, because Martin was looking around while walking down the street. Zimmerman concludes from this that Martin was "on drugs, or up to no good, or something." But this is a risible excuse. Peole walk in the ran because the rain wn't so bad, or because they figure they'll get soaked anyway, or because they like being in the rain.

Thus, Martin was not a "suspicious person" according to any reasonable person.

Under normal circumstances, no, he wasn't a suspicious person. But due to the recent robberies, yes, he could be perceived, by any reasonable person, to be suspicious. The recent robberies was the deciding factor.

 

[Mumbles]

Under normal circumstances, no, he wasn't a suspicious person. But due to the recent robberies, yes, he could be perceived, by any reasonable person, to be suspicious. The recent robberies was the deciding factor.

So let's take a look at this.

1) The neighborhood has has a few break-ins over the past year.

2) Trayvon Martin was walking down the street in the same neighborhood.

Therefore, Trayvon Martin can be reasonably suspected of breaking into a home, or of planning to do so.

That doesn't seem logical to me - there's no actual connection between "walking down the street" and "burglar". One may as well claim ZImmerman was suspicious because he was driving an SUV.

(and to be clear, "wearing a hoodie on a rainy winter evening" isn't much to go by, either.)

 

[This is The End]

I don't even know if that is correct. I see no conviction or plea recorded in the country data.

He avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program. If that's not a plea deal, then why did he go into the program?


He was initially charged with felony resisting an officer with violence.

That was reduced to misdemeanor resisting an officer without violence.

He then agreed to the pretrial-diversion program.

http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/2/

ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983
07/18/2005
Div 10
OKane, Julie H
Criminal Felony
Closed
CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER
2005-MM-010436-A-O


ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983
07/18/2005
Orlando
Miller, W Michael
Misdemeanor
Closed
CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE
2005-DR-012980-O

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/23/nation/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323

Charged with resisting arrest without violence, he avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program, something common for first-time offenders.

 

[sgtbaker]

And on what are you are basing your opinion of what took place during the altercation, if not the only account of the altercation that we have?



Here you go.

And here's a link to various synonyms for "cold-blooded", several of which are very accurate adjectives to use to describe Zimmerman's account of the assault.



And exactly what are you using in order to make your consideration, if not the one and only piece of evidence available?



We have exactly one source of information to derive what happened during the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin. And that's Zimmerman's statement.

There is no other evidence that gives us any specific details.

And in that statement, Zimmerman does not describe Martin as acting defensively. According to Zimmerman, Martin attacked him without provocation. And not only that, but that attack as Zimmerman describes it was brutal and merciless. It continued even though Zimmerman describes himself as defenseless and screaming for help, and culminated in Martin making two different attempts to willfully murder Zimmerman.

There is nothing in Zimmerman's version of events that implies or lends credence to the notion that Martin was at all acting defensively. It is simply and clearly an account of one person being savagely beaten and nearly killed by another.

So I'll ask you this again: If you think Martin was acting defensively, upon what piece of information or evidence are you basing that opinion?

As for cold blooded, Trayvon did not dispassionally pick his victim.
As for the rest, I don't know how else to explain it. I don't want to assign reason you are not addressing the fact that I am talking about their individual experiences but this is getting redundant and I am out.

 

[sgtbaker]

I listened through Serino's interviews with Zimmerman again. There is nothing about circling his car. In fact, it turns out that the only time Trayvon passes George is when George is parked at the clubhouse. George was following Trayvon from his truck as they went down Twin Tree Lane then got out of his truck and continued to follow Trayvon down the path between the houses.

Another tidbit I picked up from those interviews is that at the time of the encounter George had in his hand only the flashlight that was not working.

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman’s vehicle and asked why he was following him. Zimmerman denied following the youth and rolled up the car window. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ayvons-death/2012/03/28/gIQA6MKhhS_story.html

Correction, this was told to Tracy Martin two days after the incident, by the detectives.

 

[sgtbaker]

There was a video of that. As I recall Serino indicated that George was parked closer to the west end of that road closer to the mailboxes. That makes Serino's information suspect. I don't remember talk of circling the car in that video. If someone has a link to that video we can review it again. The other thing to review is the source of the story coming out in early May that sparked so much interest on the circling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ayvons-death/2012/03/28/gIQA6MKhhS_story.html

I hate to spam but I don't recall adding the link to the story above.

 

[Newtons Bit]

He avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program. If that's not a plea deal, then why did he go into the program?


He was initially charged with felony resisting an officer with violence.

That was reduced to misdemeanor resisting an officer without violence.

He then agreed to the pretrial-diversion program.

http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/2/



http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/23/nation/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323

Pre-trial diversion programs, if completed successfully, result in all charges being dropped. It's not a plea-deal. It's not a conviction.

 

[johnny karate]

So let's take a look at this.

1) The neighborhood has has a few break-ins over the past year.

2) Trayvon Martin was walking down the street in the same neighborhood.

Therefore, Trayvon Martin can be reasonably suspected of breaking into a home, or of planning to do so.

That doesn't seem logical to me - there's no actual connection between "walking down the street" and "burglar". One may as well claim ZImmerman was suspicious because he was driving an SUV.

(and to be clear, "wearing a hoodie on a rainy winter evening" isn't much to go by, either.)

The missing factor thats being danced around by anyone who claims it's perfectly reasonable to see a person walking down the street and assume they are burglars... is race.

The recent spate of break-ins in Zimmerman's neighborhood had young black males as their suspects.

Zimmerman saw a young black male walking down the street and that translated into "suspicious".

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't even know if that is correct. I see no conviction or plea recorded in the country data. Also, in GZ's own words:



Source

It's a strange story, but one that appears to check out.

Though not an actual federal ATF agent, the officer worked undercover for the State Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco. On the day he was shot and killed by OPD, he was behaving erratically, unbecoming of a police officer, and in a manner entirely consistent with GZ's claims.

Also consistent with the corroboration of one of the people with GZ that evening.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/17653292/data/2/-/dbht3oz/-/5-31-12-FDLE-int-W-R.wav

Starts about 7:30 in ...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program. If that's not a plea deal, then why did he go into the program?


He was initially charged with felony resisting an officer with violence.

That was reduced to misdemeanor resisting an officer without violence.

He then agreed to the pretrial-diversion program.

http://rollingout.com/culture/georg...etired-judge[/HILITE]-has-3-closed-arrests/2/

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/23/nation/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323

I think you should have bolded the word initially. As in they initially charged him with a felony, but realized that it would never fly, so they reduced it to misdemeanor.

As for a plea deal ...
A plea bargain (also plea agreement, plea deal or copping a plea) is an agreement in a criminal case between the prosecutor and defendant whereby the defendant agrees to plead guilty GZ did not enter into a plea deal.

You should probably also think twice about linking to an article calling GZ son of a retired judge, since we know that is nonsense.(rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/2/)

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So let's take a look at this.

1) The neighborhood has has a few break-ins over the past year.

Yes, let's look at this ...

From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times

2) Trayvon Martin was walking down the street in the same neighborhood.

Yes, simply walking down the steet ..

This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something.
It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
...he was just staring ...looking at all the houses.

For years one of the cornerstones of Neighborhood Watch has been the reporting of suspicious activities and individuals to the police.... What exactly is a “suspicious activity”?A stranger loitering in your neighborhood or a vehicle cruising the streets repeatedly; someone peering into cars or windows

Therefore, Trayvon Martin can be reasonably suspected of breaking into a home, or of planning to do so.

Therefor, TM can be considered to be acting suspiciously, by any reasonable neighborhood watch definition.

That doesn't seem logical to me - there's no actual connection between "walking down the street" and "burglar". One may as well claim ZImmerman was suspicious because he was driving an SUV.

(and to be clear, "wearing a hoodie on a rainy winter evening" isn't much to go by, either.)

Maybe it doesn't seem logical to you because you are too busy being dishonest in your descriptions about what happened.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I listened through Serino's interviews with Zimmerman again. There is nothing about circling his car....

In the walk though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X_2NeMrGCvg#t=370s

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It goes beyond words. Zimmerman described Martin's actions as murderous.

" ...the suspect covered my nose and mouth and stopped my breathing."

"At this point I felt the suspect reach for my now-exposed firearm... "

Zimmerman is clearly describing an attempt on his life.

I agree with you that it is a more extraordinary story that TM was tying to kill GZ than simply in a fight with him. Ii's certainly possible that GZ may have embellished his story, whether intentionally or not, in order to help justify his shooting TM. More specifically, the "you are going to die tonight" part. But just because it's more extraordinary doesn't mean it didn't happen. Perhaps TM flew into a murderous rage ?

What evidence - aside from the word of a man you now seem to admit is probably a liar - is there that Martin was beating Zimmerman, and that Zimmerman was afraid and couldn't get away?

GZ is injured in numerous places, TM is not. That certainly implies TM was beating or had beaten GZ. And numerous witness statement that TM was on top of GZ, and the one that he was either beating him MMA style, or at least keeping him from getting away based on his updated statement.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The missing factor thats being danced around by anyone who claims it's perfectly reasonable to see a person walking down the street and assume they are burglars... is race.

The recent spate of break-ins in Zimmerman's neighborhood had young black males as their suspects.

Zimmerman saw a young black male walking down the street and that translated into "suspicious".

Please. Haven't we been over this numerous times ?

People intimately familiar with case say they don't believe race played any part. Why should we listen to your opinion on race ?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0712/FBI-report-No-evidence-George-Zimmerman-is-racist

After interviewing 30 people familiar with George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain charged with killing African-American teenager Trayvon Martin, FBI agents found no evidence that the shooting was driven by racial bias or animus.
...
Even one of the most skeptical local investigators with the Sanford, Fla., police department, Chris Serino, suggested to the FBI that Zimmerman followed Trayvon “based on his attire,” not “skin color,”

 

[This is The End]

Pre-trial diversion programs, if completed successfully, result in all charges being dropped. It's not a plea-deal. It's not a conviction.

Only if you are being a pedant.

He made a deal to get out of it. Do you disagree with that??

 

[This is The End]

Pre-trial diversion programs, if completed successfully, result in all charges being dropped. It's not a plea-deal. It's not a conviction.

Also, it is not in dispute that he pushed the undercover cop.

Could you tell me why you are making this distinction about what his punishment was?

It's not quite as bad as the posters that were saying that Z did not sexually assault that girl several times over 10 years simply because he was only a few years older than her, but it is almost as weird.

He pushed the undercover cop in the bar. No one disputes that. He made a deal to get out of it.

Again, no one disputes that Z made a "deal" to get out from under that misdemeanor.

I'm very sorry that I or any else incorrectly called it a technical legal term, plea deal, which gave others a foothold to obscure whether or not Z actually did what he was charged with.

Checkmite said it better than me earlier in the thread:

"Avoided conviction by attending a pretrial diversion program". When people say this person has a history of violence and cite a struggle with police for which he was arrested and charged, it really is intellectually dishonest to counter with "the charges were dismissed", as if he was completely innocent and this incident is therefore not evidence of past confrontational acts. Obviously the courts considered him guilty, which is why they sent him to a program for first-time offenders. Because he was an offender, which is the point of bringing up his past - that he has a history.

 

[johnny karate]

As for cold blooded, Trayvon did not dispassionally pick his victim.

As for cold-blooded, it has other meanings aside from "dispassionate", as I have already demonstrated.

I don't know why you insist on forcing your definition on my use of the word, but it's both bizarre and impolite.

The courteous and honest thing to do is admit you were wrong.

As for the rest, I don't know how else to explain it. I don't want to assign reason you are not addressing the fact that I am talking about their individual experiences but this is getting redundant and I am out.

It's incredibly simple. I am merely asking for the evidentiary basis for your opinion. Your adamant refusal to answer such a simple request indicates the basis for your opinion is... nothing. You've apparantly decided to form an opinion about the altercation completely divorced from reality.