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Why didn't Jesus write anything down?

Well, according to the Bible, Jesus the Son Of Man impressed a whole load of scribes and Pharisees (who were literate too), even if not necessarily in a good way. If you listen to those gospels, some of those literate guys seem to have literally nothing better to do than try to throw catch-22 question after catch-22 question at the wandering hobo and his merry band. Plus he debates priests in the temple, causes a ruckus among the Pharisees with the healing of the blind guy in John, etc.

You'd think one of those would write a letter about him, or something, even if (as the early Xian conspiracy theory went) just to warn some other scribes to not talk about Fight Club... err... about Jesus :p
 
Well, according to the Bible, Jesus the Son Of Man impressed a whole load of scribes and Pharisees (who were literate too), even if not necessarily in a good way. If you listen to those gospels, some of those literate guys seem to have literally nothing better to do than try to throw catch-22 question after catch-22 question at the wandering hobo and his merry band. Plus he debates priests in the temple, causes a ruckus among the Pharisees with the healing of the blind guy in John, etc.

You'd think one of those would write a letter about him, or something, even if (as the early Xian conspiracy theory went) just to warn some other scribes to not talk about Fight Club... err... about Jesus :p

"The winners write the history." So Jesus would have been noted as a loser somewhere along the way, if he'd been crucified.
 
Assuming he even existed, why wouldn't he write some stuff down?
I'm reading a great book on the Apocropha, "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew" by Bart D. Ehrman. In it, he mentions the obvious fact that all the gospels, canonical or not, were written long after Jesus, and that there are no writings done by Jesus himself. I suppose most people were illiterate at the time, but, I mean, He's supposed to be God. Surely he could jot down a nice Cliff Notes version of what He intended to say?

Well, Socrates never wrote anything either. Well, I am sure he wrote something (grocery lists, Tetris high scores, etc.), but he did not write any of his teachings. There was more of an oral tradition back in the day. Could have been the same with Jesus.
 
Maybe, but we have three contemporary witnesses who did write about Socrates, including two direct students of his, and one of those is a fairly hostile account. That's a notch above "oral tradition".

Plus the problem I have with it isn't by itself, but that then when it comes to arguing the reliability of the accounts, the argument comes up, 'no, no, see, they had plenty of witnesses. Mark couldn't just make everything up, because there were people who knew about this and that. Why, there were even people from Nazareth right there, that's why the Prophet Without Honor incident is there. It's to placate those.'

And then we have a contradiction there. Either

A) Jesus was SO insignificant that nobody took notice that he even existed. Even people who would have had a reason to mention him, never heard of him. (E.g., I'm sure Philo who wrote about other sects, and who is the guy who invented the Word Of God as a separate anthropomorphic deity, would have had reason to be interest in the cult of the incarnated and killed of exactly that Word Of God. Even if only to say, 'I didn't mean THAT, you berks.')

OR

B) He was SO frikken famous, that everywhere you'd go, you'd find LOTS of witnesses, because there'd be lots of points from his birth to his ministry that would need such validation. Why, from Rome (where Mark was written) to Galilee (where presumably Q originated) to at least 3 other places, why, you couldn't pick a period in Jesus's life without someone BEING RIGHT THERE to contradict you if you got anything wrong.

The two are mutually incompatible. Jesus can't be both (A) insignificant and unnoticed AND (B) memorable and remembered to thousands of people all over the damned place. One can pick one or the other but not both.
 
The most important event in human history, if true, and no first-hand accounts, nothing from the principle. Impressive. (That anyone believes any of this.)

Yeah, you'd think that a bunch of dead people rising up from their graves and walking around Jerusalem would merit even a passing mention from, well, anybody outside the Bible. In the grand scheme of things, local news about the execution of a seditionist from a radical religious sect by the Roman authority probably came after the fluff piece about the kitten stuck up the olive tree.
 
As with the Dead Sea Scrolls case, his writings are yet to be discovered.
That's profoundly poor reasoning.

That option goes right by some atheists as unacceptable, because arguably the majority of atheists profoundly believe in non-existence of Jesus. Hence no scribbly-scribbly.
Actually, many atheists think that there likely was a real Jesus, son of Joseph. Just like there was a real Nicolas of Myra.
 
Assuming he even existed, why wouldn't he write some stuff down?
I'm reading a great book on the Apocropha, "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew" by Bart D. Ehrman. In it, he mentions the obvious fact that all the gospels, canonical or not, were written long after Jesus, and that there are no writings done by Jesus himself. I suppose most people were illiterate at the time, but, I mean, He's supposed to be God. Surely he could jot down a nice Cliff Notes version of what He intended to say?

In his Forgery In Christianity (1930) Joseph Wheless rambles on about all the Gospels floating around: "This authority also lists the famous Protevangetium Jacobi, or Infancy Gospel of James, the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy, that of Gamaliel, the Gospel according to the Hebrews, also According to the Egyptians; of the Nazarenes; Gospels of St. Peter, of St. Philip, of St. Thomas, of St. Bartholomew, of St. Andrew, of Barnabas, of Thaddeus, even notable forged Gospels of Judas Iscariot, and of Mother Eve; also the Gospel by Jesus Christ."

That last one is interesting because other all other Gospels are Gospel of Jesus Christ but here in his list Wheless presents a Gospel that by name was supposedly written by Jesus himself. Sadly that is the only comment Wheless makes on the matter and what the contents of that Gospel or even when it was supposedly written are unknown.
 
Actually, many atheists think that there likely was a real Jesus, son of Joseph. Just like there was a real Nicolas of Myra.

In contrast to the vocal minority in this thread, I think you are correct. Yes, there have been books like Nailed by David Fitzgerald (http://www.amazon.com/Nailed-Christian-Myths-Jesus-Existed/dp/0557709911)
which do an excellent job at arguing against the assertion that Jesus was a god, but that is really beside the point. Very few scholars except those of the fundamentalist variety take that idea seriously. And are the fundies the ones you really want to argue against?

As an example, one possible argument to be made would be one against the apocolytic prophet hypothesis which is based on a line of evidence arguing "Yeshua" thought the world was about to end. (The apocolytic hypothesis would also answer the question why he didn't write anything; why would one need to write things down, if the world was about to end?)




That said, if one really wants to hear a real scholar of the ancient world argue in favor of mythicism, I would recommend Richard Carrier in this podcast:

http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={4D88EAB4-474E-4338-B8B4-7B7AD0410B24}

But even he, as a scholar, is very careful to qualify his remarks:

Early on (12:37), he says,
"....First of all, I don't think we can be certain, one way or another. I do think that the preponderance of evidence supports mythicism, but I think the evidence for the origins of Christianity is so scarce and so problematic, we can never have that kind of certainty I think some people want; both mythicists and historicists want this certainty I don't think we can have."

(Sounds like maybe he might be talking about some of the mythicists here.:))


At another point he even says this about mythicism:
…it's something that needs more attention in the scholarly community, even if ultimately it gets refuted......"


Doesn't quite have the same force of those saying if Jesus had superpowers, then why didn't he find a scribe to dictate his teachings.. therefore, he didn't exist….:)




(Interestingly, his mythicist hypothesis is actually a little different and more nuanced (and more consistent with the data) than what you might think. But you'll have to listen to the podcasts and read his writings to really do it justice. I personally am not persuaded, but then again, I still have an immense respect for Carrier as an intellectual in the field for coming up with some innovative ways to analyze the evidence.)
 
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Yeah, you'd think that a bunch of dead people rising up from their graves and walking around Jerusalem would merit even a passing mention from, well, anybody outside the Bible. In the grand scheme of things, local news about the execution of a seditionist from a radical religious sect by the Roman authority probably came after the fluff piece about the kitten stuck up the olive tree.

Our guy rose from the dead, but we're not going to write that down for a few decades, just because we're... Well, because.
 
Actually, many atheists think that there likely was a real Jesus, son of Joseph. Just like there was a real Nicolas of Myra.

I have to ask why an atheist would think this, other than force of habit.

You are speaking of probabilities. No one can prove anything, so is it probable he actually existed when no historically valid record of him exists?
 
I have to ask why an atheist would think this, other than force of habit.

You are speaking of probabilities. No one can prove anything, so is it probable he actually existed when no historically valid record of him exists?
I agree very strongly with this. When we create a "life of Jesus" all we are really doing is assigning probabilities to the various biographical details related in the gospels. Is it probable that he was an apocalyptic preacher, and was executed following some incident of unruliness in the Temple? Yes. But we have no independent evidence: it's merely the sort of thing that is known to have happened in those days. Was he born of a virgin mother? No. Not only is there no evidence, it's not the sort of thing that happened, and the story appears to have been inspired by a mistranslation of a passage in an old book. Thus we "construct" a probable Jesus, as if we were ordering a meal à la carte in a restaurant.

However, the "positive" mythicists, as I point out in #85, also make various unfounded suppositions. The existence of a myth, like the existence of a person, requires to be sustained by evidence. Thus one arrives at the hypothesis of a historical Jesus by default. The early Christians believed in one. What is the most plausible reason for such a belief? That in fact there was one. Not a very satisfactory proof, but it's the best we have.
 
Thus one arrives at the hypothesis of a historical Jesus by default. The early Christians believed in one. What is the most plausible reason for such a belief? That in fact there was one. Not a very satisfactory proof, but it's the best we have.
The odds seem against it. There were lots of groups with lots of beliefs.

The earliest Christian writings we have are those of what are called the genuine Pauline epistles. In them the author knows of no earthly Jesus, of no biography as we find in the much-later-written Gospels.
 
The odds seem against it. There were lots of groups with lots of beliefs.

The earliest Christian writings we have are those of what are called the genuine Pauline epistles. In them the author knows of no earthly Jesus, of no biography as we find in the much-later-written Gospels.
Indeed so. Exactly my point. But by the same token, neither does he know of Doherty's
The Anointed Savior was originally a heavenly being, whose atoning death took place at the hands of demonic beings in a supernatural realm halfway between heaven and earth, a sublunar sphere where he assumed a fleshly, quasi-human form ...
(See #85) And while Paul tells us nothing significant, he does seem to have believed in a Jesus physically descended in the flesh from the line of David. His having purely revelatory experiences of a dead and risen Jesus now dwelling in the sky does not preclude his belief in a previously existing real Jesus. And the evidence (eg of Jesus' existence in the flesh, or of his having a "brother") suggests that Paul did have such a belief. Of course the evidence is very weak, and can be "explained away", but I contend that we do not even have sufficient knowledge to justify explaining it away. We simply have Paul telling us the guy had flesh, and a brother, and that's that.
 
I think you can. The burden of proof lies with believers in a historical Jesus, to produce evidence of his reality. The burden of proof equally falls on the Doherty etc mythicists to provide evidence for their suppositions. It may be that both fail this test. Thus, neither a real Jesus nor a mythical Jesus (in the positive and elaborate Doherty sense) can be established. We are left, as you say, with legend; that is, with stories which can be shown to have circulated at various places and times.

But that is what myth actually means--any traditional story (Bulfinch's Mythology (1855-1863); Remsburg, John (1003) The Christ; Kirk, G.S. Myth: Its Meaning and Functions in Ancient and Other Cultures. Berkeley: Cambridge University Press, 1973.; Kirk, G.S. "On Defining Myths". Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth. Ed. Alan Dundes. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984. 53-61.)

The story that Christopher Columbus sailed west to prove the Earth was round is as much a myth as the stories of Heracles 12 labors is. IMHO Remsburg explained is best:

"But what do we understand by the term myth? Falsehood, fable, and myth, are usually considered synonymous terms. But a falsehood, a fable, and a myth, while they may all be fictions and equally untrue, are not the same. A falsehood is the expression of an untruth intended to deceive. A fable is an avowed or implied fiction usually intended to instruct or entertain. A myth is a falsehood, a fable, or an erroneous opinion, which eventually becomes an established belief. While a falsehood and a fable are intentional and immediate expressions of fiction, a myth is, in most cases, an unconscious and gradual development of one.
Myths are of three kinds: Historical, Philosophical, and Poetical.

A Historical myth according to Strauss, and to some extent I follow his language, is a real event colored by the light of antiquity, which confounded the human and divine, the natural and the supernatural. The event may be but slightly colored and the narrative essentially true, or it may be distorted and numberless legends attached until but a small residuum of truth remains and the narrative is essentially false. A large portion of ancient history, including the Biblical narratives, is historical myth. The earliest records of all nations and of all religions are more or less mythical. "Nothing great has been established," says Renan, "which does not rest on a legend. The only culprit in such cases is the humanity which is willing to be deceived."

A Philosophical myth is an idea clothed in the caress of historical narrative. When a mere idea is personified and presented in the form of a man or a god it is called a pure myth. Many of the gods and heroes of antiquity are pure myths. John Fiske refers to a myth as "a piece of unscientific philosophizing," and this is a fairly good definition of the philosophical myth.

A Poetical myth is a blending of the historical and philosophical, embellished by the creations of the imagination. The poems of Homer and Hesiod, which were the religious text books of the ancient Greeks, and the poetical writings of the Bible, which helped to form and foster the Semitic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Mohammedanism, belong to this class."


Even if we limit ourselves to Remsburg's historical myth above we still have problems with Jesus. In fact while Remsburg felt the evidence showed the Gospels account fell in the "narrative is essentially false" end of the spectrum he also felt there was just enough to show there was flesh and blood Jesus in the 1st century.

The problem is if the Gospels are an essentially false narrative they tell us NOTHING about the flesh and blood Jesus in the 1st century--in other words the Jesus they describe is effectively non historical just as King Arthur and Robin Hood are.
 
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Historians have a number of ways in which they assess the value of their sources, and first on this list is that the source does not narrate supernatural stuff.

The only exception made to this rule is the Bible. Here the traditional historians bend over backward to allow this source in, in spite of all the miracles and so on.

If we are to take Matthew has history, why shouldn't we similarly take Homer?
 
Historians have a number of ways in which they assess the value of their sources, and first on this list is that the source does not narrate supernatural stuff.

The only exception made to this rule is the Bible. Here the traditional historians bend over backward to allow this source in, in spite of all the miracles and so on.

If we are to take Matthew has history, why shouldn't we similarly take Homer?
Homer relates myths, and at one time scholars believed that Troy was fictional. But its ruins were discovered in the nineteenth century, along with those of the mythical palace of Minos on Crete. So Matthew, like Homer, isn't history, but it may be myth inspired by real events.
 

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