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Why didn't Jesus write anything down?

He's supposed to have been a rabbi, so the relevant question is not the literacy rate among Jews, but the literacy rate among rabbis. And that must have been 100% because it's a job requirement.
Interesting. I recall one place in the gospels where Jesus was called "Rabbi" by a follower, but by trade he was a carpenter, quite possibly carrying on his father's business. Since there is no mention of Joseph in the gospels once Jesus started his mission, it's assumed Joseph had died some time after Jesus turned twelve. Jesus, being the eldest son, would likely have learned the trade from his father and inherited the business.
 
He's supposed to have been a rabbi, so the relevant question is not the literacy rate among Jews, but the literacy rate among rabbis. And that must have been 100% because it's a job requirement.
I don't accept that. If Jesus was addressed as "Rabbi" by his followers, this was most probably as a courtesy due to a respected teacher rather than an acknowledgement that he was a qualified professional minister of religion. This usage of the term was common, then and later. Here is a reference to a tenth century example from the "Khazar correspondence".
http://www.reformation.org/13th-tribe-correspondence.html
We have seen among some other manuscripts the copy of a letter which King Joseph, son of Aaron, the Khazar priest wrote to R. Hasdai bar Isaac.(... The R (for Rabbi) is a courtesy title.)
In fact, Hasdai was, according to wiki, a "scholar, physician, diplomat, and patron of science."

Jesus' being addressed as Rabbi by his followers is thus not conclusive proof of his literacy.
 
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It depends on what flavour of mythicism you're addressing, actually. Currently, yes, the most aggressive and vocal variant is that Jesus was for Paul an entirely celestial beings that never existed on Earth, etc. Now I cannot dismiss that, mind you, but I'm more in the camp of the original meaning of MJ, which probably nowadays would be more recognizably called the Legendary Jesus: <snip>
I think your post sets down the problem very well. There are a "mythical" and a "legendary" Jesus indeed. We are not far apart as regards the legendary Jesus. But I have a real difficulty with the "Jesus myth" as described in the passage cited below. I don't think there ever was such a belief regarding Jesus in the mind of Paul or any other early Christian. They believed rightly or wrongly in a real person. http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/the_jesus_mythicist_campaign/2901
As Doherty argues, "Jesus Christ" (which means "The Anointed Savior") was originally a heavenly being, whose atoning death took place at the hands of demonic beings in a supernatural realm halfway between heaven and earth, a sublunar sphere where he assumed a fleshly, quasi-human form. This and the rest of the "gospel" was revealed to the first Christians in visions and inspirations and through the discovery of hidden messages in the scriptures ... [Later] a new cult arose with the belief that Jesus actually came to earth and was crucified by Jews with the complicity of the Roman authorities.

As an analogy. There may or may not have been a person behind the King Arthur stories. But even if there was not, that doesn't imply that some proponents of the myth believed Arthur to have been a purely celestial or spiritual figure, who never visited earth physically, and that the Saxons he fought and defeated in battle were in fact malign spiritual powers dwelling in a non-physical domain. Nobody ever believed that of Arthur, so if that is "mythicism", let us abandon the term and use your "legendary" in its place.
 
Well, as I was saying, I'm not a big fan myself of the Doherty/Carrier/etc kind of mythicism, so I'm probably not the person to defend it. I can see how it's at least possible, though, so I can't argue in good faith against it either.

The thing is, yes, some characters ARE euhemerized.

E.g., Odin or Thor have not much reason to be considered originally humans, nor did Saxo have any documents to point that way. Yet he writes whole tawdry stories about Odin and his unfaithful wife as humans. If you had only those stories, you'd probably go, 'oh, he wouldn't make that kind of stuff out of thin air' about that too. But the fact is that he did just that.

E.g., as probably the most ridiculous example of euhemerization, because (I'm told) in Romanian "Saint" and "Holy" are the same word, the Holy Wednesday and Holy Friday (you know, the days of the week that they were supposed to fast on) are euhemerized as what we'd more properly translate as Saint Wednesday and Saint Friday in a whole buttload of folk stories. That is, they appear as actual people that the hero of the story meets, talks to, receives assistance from, and so on. They literally euhemerized two days of the week as real people.

I think you can't top that, really. Whenever you meet some character that you think, 'nah, they wouldn't euhemerize that one', well, remember those two. Whatever character you're thinking of, chances are it ain't worse than those two.

And more to the point, I really don't see why that couldn't happen the same for Arthur. Well, we don't know of any figure in the sky to support that, but, really, as a hypothetical exercise, there is nothing to say that people couldn't euhemerize some mythical hero as a heroic king. After all, again, Saxo did literally that with Odin.

And of course, not everything in a story has to be mythical just because one hero is. E.g., King John isn't mythical too, although the modern version of Robin Hood is having a fictive character as a hero. The same could theoretically apply to Arthur too, IF he is made up. Clearly the Romans and Celts were overrun by very real Saxons, and stories set into that period would of course be about the real Celts and Saxons. But you can still make up a character to play the lead role in that story.
 
Well, as I was saying, I'm not a big fan myself of the Doherty/Carrier/etc kind of mythicism, so I'm probably not the person to defend it. I can see how it's at least possible, though, so I can't argue in good faith against it either.
I think you can. The burden of proof lies with believers in a historical Jesus, to produce evidence of his reality. The burden of proof equally falls on the Doherty etc mythicists to provide evidence for their suppositions. It may be that both fail this test. Thus, neither a real Jesus nor a mythical Jesus (in the positive and elaborate Doherty sense) can be established. We are left, as you say, with legend; that is, with stories which can be shown to have circulated at various places and times.
 
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Well, pretty much that summarizes my position. Both the historical Jesus of Ehrman and others, and the celestial being of Doherty and others, are both very much possible and very much failing to have enough evidence.
 
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There are references to the Name traditions in the New Testament. Perhaps the most famous is Philippians 2: 9:

'Therefore God also highly exalted him [Jesus] and gave him the name that is above every name ...' To a Jew such as Paul, this was clearly Yahweh. There is a strong argument that this passage of Philippians is a pre-existing hymn or song of praise which Paul is quoting, but in any case, it shows that both Paul and early Christians knew of the Jewish traditions of the Name and also, more shockingly for Jews, applied it to Jesus.

There are some very long and boring arguments in the scholarship about the titles applied to Jesus in the New Testament. He is frequently called 'Kurios', which translates the Hebrew 'Adonai'. Kurios is the word generally used to render the Tetragrammaton in the Septuagint, and Adonai is how it was pronouced in Hebrew when the Bible was read out (most people think) and I think most people consider that the early Christians knew what they were doing when they applied it to Jesus: they were assigning him a divine title. Some argue that, as with the English words 'Lord' or 'Sir', their use is simply a mark of respect. But I think that this is a weak argument, since many of the references are steeped in an Old Testament background, notably from the Psalms. Psalm 110:1 ('The Lord [Yahweh, translated as kurios] said to my Lord [Adonai, translated as kurios], sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool') is, I think I'm right in saying, the most frequently quoted OT passage in the New Testament. Cf Matthew 22: 43-45 for one instance. In all of these, it's clear that Jesus is being referred to with one of the names of God. And these are names that were at least sometimes euphemisms for the Tetragrammaton. I don't think any Biblical scholar would agree that the New Testament writers didn't know the traditions about the Tetragrammaton; I've certainly never heard that argument.

I also don't think it's really possible to argue that the New Testament isn't deeply Jewish. See the recent Jewish Annotated New Testament for details of just how Jewish beliefs and culture run through the whole thing. I think I've already mentioned just how 'Semitic' a lot of the Greek is (particularly Mark); it's less fashionable these days than it used to be to posit an Aramaic original underlying the Gospels, but it certainly seems that their writers were used to Hebrew and Aramaic texts (such as the Septuagint) and used those languages themselves. Paul says he is a Jew, a Pharisee, and he really must have been to know all the stuff he knows and think the way he thinks (for instance, on purity and pollution, a deeply Jewish way of thinking). As I also said upthread, that the New Testament is deeply Jewish doesn't mean it isn't also Greek, since Hellenism was so pervasive, even in Palestine, at this period. There's no neat boundary between the two.

I wanted to address this too, because I feel that the "Jewishness" of the NT Greek is usually grossly overstated. Words are taken to mean some Hebrew or Aramaic connection often for no reason than that you could translate them to Hebrew or Aramaic too, or that you'd use them to translate some Aramaic word. Which is is bogus enough to kinda start to irk me.

Point in case: Kurios.

Well, Kurios in Greek meant "lord", although probably more exactly, "master" or "owner". As in master vs slave. Someone who either literally owns you, or has enough rights over you that he might as well own you. A subcase being "guardian" (which at the time was much more of a master than you're nowadays to your kids.)

It comes from "kuros", meaning pretty much "supremacy." So "kurios" is one who has such supremacy over another or over some inanimate thing.

The word can be applied to a noble or king (e.g., the Roman Emperor would be called "kurios" by the Greeks, as Josephus tells us) but it could mean as little as one's father or legal guardian. or to the guy who owns something. E.g., for an unmarried woman, her father or if orphan her brother would be her "kurios". E.g., for some plot of land, the owner was a "kurios".

It's not just some wild guess by those pesky mythicists, it's what the word actually MEANT.

Even in the NT, it's used often enough for someone who is not God. Again, it's not some rationalization by those denying some imaginary Jewishness of the text, it's what the text actually says. E.g.,Matthew 25:18-21:

"But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ "​

All those highlighted words are "kurios". I could quote the rest of the parable, which has half a dozen more "kurios", but you can check it out for yourself if you want to.

Or John 13:15:

I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

Again, we have a use of "kurios" for something very different than God.

Or to illustrate how it worked for inanimate things too, and simple ownership, here's what Matthew 20:8 says:

"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

It may not be obvious in English, but that's the "kurios" of the vineyard in the Greek text. Go figure. (Incidentally Mark too uses the same "kurios" of the vineyard construct in his own story.)

Paul himself, although he does use "Lord" predominantly for Jesus, in Galatians 4:1 pulls a:

What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he's the owner of the whole estate.

Yep, that "owner" is a "kurios".

And so on and so forth. It's probably too long a message already, but basically "kurios" was not "adonai", and it's not inherently some divine title. There is no inherent divinity or even royalty in owning a vineyard or inheriting an estate.

In fact, actually I'd say that, on the contrary, not only that doesn't necessarily indicate a connection to Adonai, but actually most of the NT writers don't seem to stick to the same convention at all. They have no problem naming their Lord (Jesus), or using constructs like Lord Jesus which have no parallels to the use of Adonai. They also have no problem saying "God" all over the place.

I'd say that far from being the same use as Adonai, which was used as a substitution, as a way to avoid using God's name, in the NT it's mostly just a title.

Now don't get me wrong, I would assume they were familiar with the OT, or at least with the Septuagint translation, the way they quote mine it and reproduce even the translation errors from that one, but basically that's where the supportable connection ends. Just because they toss "kurios" left and right, it doesn't mean they're using it exactly as in the Jewish use of "adonai".
 
I just watched a movie called Stigmata on amazon that suggests that there is such a gospel of Christ was found in 1945 that was declared heresy by the Catholic church. Now if the movie didn't make the son of man out to be such an ass it would have been better. On the other hand I found the movie in the horror section so take it for what it's worth.
 
Assuming he even existed, why wouldn't he write some stuff down?
I'm reading a great book on the Apocropha, "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew" by Bart D. Ehrman. In it, he mentions the obvious fact that all the gospels, canonical or not, were written long after Jesus, and that there are no writings done by Jesus himself. I suppose most people were illiterate at the time, but, I mean, He's supposed to be God. Surely he could jot down a nice Cliff Notes version of what He intended to say?
As with the Dead Sea Scrolls case, his writings are yet to be discovered. That option goes right by some atheists as unacceptable, because arguably the majority of atheists profoundly believe in non-existence of Jesus. Hence no scribbly-scribbly.
 
As with the Dead Sea Scrolls case, his writings are yet to be discovered. That option goes right by some atheists as unacceptable, because arguably the majority of atheists profoundly believe in non-existence of Jesus. Hence no scribbly-scribbly.
An interesting possibility, but like so many it suffers by the fact that it uses things that have been discovered as if they were evidence for the things that have not.
 
As with the Dead Sea Scrolls case, his writings are yet to be discovered. That option goes right by some atheists as unacceptable, because arguably the majority of atheists profoundly believe in non-existence of Jesus. Hence no scribbly-scribbly.

There is a fine difference between being a sceptic and being a contrarian. For some of us what is unacceptable -- and not just about Jesus -- is just postulating to somehow "know" something without evidence.

Which, incidentally, also applies to what you wrote above. As you say, any such writings have not been discovered as of yet. I.e., the evidence for either the existence of them or for how we'd react is non-existent. You don't really know how we'd react to something that hasn't actually happened. Even if you took a poll, people often answer something else than when they'd actually do.

Plus, it doesn't add up in any form or shape to, "Hence no scribbly-scribbly." The only reason there is no scribbly-scribbly, is that no scribbly-scribbly has been ever found. It's not like any kind of faith or attitude towards truth on our part would actually cause such a document to materialize out of thin air. Reality doesn't change in response to your or our beliefs or wishes.

Well, unless one of us is Q (from Star Trek, not the hypothetical NT doument) :p
 
As with the Dead Sea Scrolls case, his writings are yet to be discovered.
You mean, no such writings have ever been discovered.
That option goes right by some atheists as unacceptable, because arguably the majority of atheists profoundly believe in non-existence of Jesus. Hence no scribbly-scribbly.
Not at all. The majority of atheists do not positively believe in the non-existence of Jesus. Dawkins tends to believe in such existence, and so did Christopher Hitchens. I incline, without much tenacity I admit, to the view that he existed. As a human being. So if the scribbly turns up, I will be fascinated. (If it also proves him to be God, I will be even more fascinated.)

ETA. Suppose a writing from Paul is discovered (and we know he did write things) revealing, it's all nonsense, I just made the revelation story up to get cash from credulous idiots. What would you say about that? (That Paul liked getting cash from his followers is revealed in 1 Corinthians.)

ETA2. It's in chapter 9.
 
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That Paul REALLY liked collecting money is all over the place. In 2 Corinthians he spends most of the latter arguing how they should trust him with donations to some unspecified churches because he's suffered so much for Jesus, because SOME kind of incident on his previous visit apparently made them think twice. (Also, strangely, he doesn't offer to settle it by bringing a receipt or something.) In Phillippians, he had just got their generous donation through an evoy named Epaphroditus.

(Incidentally, Epaphroditus is called an "apostolos" in that role, showing that, as I was saying elsewhere, for Paul an "apostolos" was just an "envoy.")

Conversely, in 2 Thessalonians, he mentions that he paid in full himself for all his expenses... and you kinda have to wonder with what money, if he doesn't really have a trade other than preaching around any more. Paul obviously has the money for those trips and staying there, so, you know, it must be from some other churches' contributions.

On the other hand, such insistence that he doesn't expect anyone to pay for him, is found in 2 Corinthians too, where, hey, he's not asking for your money... except that he does, and that's what the whole argument is about. So I wouldn't necessarily take it as being any different in Thessalonika. It may well be just part of his con act.

It's also quite symptomatic that while we find references to Paul getting donation money, there are none to his giving it to anyone. There is no epistle that says, "I'm bringing you donation money, 'cause you guys are poor." Or what to do with the money he brought. No, really, it's weird.

Furthermore, for someone who is supposedly all for collecting money for the needy, we have an instance where Paul's attitude to those who are needy is... shocking, to say, the least. In 2 Thessalonians 3:10 (and arguably the whole point of the whole chapter) we see him go: "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat."" And in 3:6 and 14 he tells them to stay away from the unemployed, basically. In 12 he says they `(the unemployed) should just earn the bread they eat.

Which is an odd example of Christian charity, but more importantly it brings the question of where the hell do the money go that Paul collects for charity. If his attitude towards the poor is that they should just earn their bread, and even tells his congregation to stay away from those and avoid those... you know, I have trouble imagining him actually giving to any poor, if the one city in his epistles with such a problem just gets told to get to work. If the poor should just get to work, then who IS getting the donation money and for what?
 
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Hans

What about Galatians 2:9-10 as an example of Paul's charitable generosity?
9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
So he's even "eager" to give it all away, or to remember to do so at least.
 
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Well, he says all over the place that he's not taking the money for himself, and he's eager to help the poor (e.g., those vague and unspecified churches in the east). But then again, do you think he'd get anything if he said otherwise? I don't think we can distinguish between an honest charity and a con that way. I mean, the con will also not say up front "gimme money 'cause I want to stay at the Ritz" :p

What we do see though is that in Thessalonika obviously they had some jobless people who were living off the charity of Paul's church. I.e., it's about time to remember what he was eager to do. But Paul not only doesn't offer to help, but tells them to get a job and tells the congregation to just avoid those poor. In terms as brutal as that that otherwise those poor just shouldn't eat.

It's like Paul The Charitable, who's all for collecting money for the poor, eager even, as long as at the intention level or it's in some unspecified other place and otherwise completely unverifiable... turns into Paul The Hardline Teabagger, when a city actually has a problem that would need some of that money. Then suddenly those beggars shouldn't even eat, if they can't earn their own bread.

I dunno, man... there seems to be... shall we say... a profound disconnect between those stated intentions, and what his attitude turns into when one of his churches actually sounds like it has a poverty problem. Then not only he doesn't offer to give anything, but he instructs his flock to not just refrain from giving, but avoid those unemployed guys altogether.

Surely if some preacher these days pulled that kind of "have nothing to do with the unemployed" speech to his congregation, you'd very much doubt that he's all that nice and charitable.

I mean, Jesus Haploid Christ, even if he doesn't want to give anything himself, he could at least keep his mouth shut and let those who want to help continue to help. Telling them more than once in that letter to basically stop it, is... pretty heartless, I'd say.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe

Scribes were available, so the illiterate thing doesn't work. If Jesus, the Son of GOD!, had impressed even one scribe he'd probably have been busy getting all this down, taking dictation in the evenings, etc.

Of course, Jesus would have had to exist for that to happen.

But even more telling is that God didn't care enough about what Jesus said to save it. If I sent my son on a suicide mission I'd want to make it pay off.
 

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