School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[zooterkin]

I think the UK has a thriving gun culture, based around the guns that are available to the citizens.

They just don't have the variety available, but they do quite well with what they have as far as clubs and ranges and organizations and traditions, etc.

Certainly the gun culture that exists is well organised, and has a long tradition. The fact remains that it is very much a minority pastime, which most people view with suspicion.

 

[Nessie]

Nope, but your persistent use of, shall we say falsehoods, to express your fear is certainly, uh, persistent. We have gun control. Gun owners generally accept that some amount of regulation is appropriate. What many of us find unacceptable are the calls for additional silly "controls" like bans of certain guns simply because they look scary to some people, outlawing auxiliary safety equipment like sound suppressors, imposing arbitrary fees or taxes, or rationing of ammunition. We keep hearing these sorts of suggestions from the irrationally fearful. What we aren't seeing is the objective evidence that these suggestions would do any more than assuage some fear.

When we're asked to accommodate other people's fears, we point out that their fears aren't based on objective, sound reasoning. We keep asking for the calls for additional regulation to be backed with sensible arguments which show that they'd actually be effective. We get willful ignorance, arguments from incredulity, hand wringing, and a lot of blaming gun owners for problems we didn't create. They do everything the can to avoid responsibility for their own fear.

I don't know how you have managed to miss all the evidence to show how US gun culture and control as it is has been a fail compared to the rest of the Western World. Here are world murder rates

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/16/car-crime-fall-technological-drive

The USA is the only Western country in the 5-20 homicides per 100,000. All of the rest are in the 0-5 bracket. Then this gun homicide map of the world which has the USA again on its own in the Western World in the second tier of 2-5 firearm homicides per 100,000. Indeed the USA rate is 2.97 compared to England & Wales with 0.07 which means the USA's rate is 42.5 times worse than ours.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

The reason for the difference is that US gun control has resulted in the widespread arming of criminals and nuts, whereas in the rest of the Western World their gun controls have not. The reason for that is US gun controls are very lax compared to the rest of the Western World and there is a gun culture which means the heavily armed American civilian population are more likely to shoot each other than the heavily armed Swiss population (firearm homicide rate of 0.77 per 100,000 which is 3.8 times lower than the USA).

After we've tried to help them understand, and they still refuse, most of us don't much care if they're scared. What we do care about is their attempts to change the rules we abide by in order to quell their own fear. Just like anything else that is subject to regulations, the laws that apply to the purchase, sale, use, and ownership of guns should be based on objective criteria and not on the irrational fears of a bunch of whiny pussies.

You love to pontificate over fears. To a non gun owner who has no fear of guns, American gun owners come over as far more fearful. They fear tyranny (never going to happen), home invasion by armed criminals (very rare, there were 110 murders during burglaries in 2009) and some come over as vigilantes who want to be armed all the time to in case of they are in the right pace at the right time and can shoot a robbery in the local store (very rare, there were 858 people killed during robberies in 2009). Indeed what is the chance of being able to stop there and then one of the 29 instances of a child murdered by a babysitter?

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf

I know you never bother to present any evidence for what you say, but that should not prevent your from reading the evidence as presented by others which show US gun control and culture is a fail.

 

[Dcdrac]

in the UK it was legal to have semi automatic guns until the Hungerford massacre of 1988 they were restricted then the shooter used a semi automatic gun. The UK took a very sane approach


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_(Amendment)_Act_1988

the massacre itself

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/19/newsid_2534000/2534669.stm

 

[Nessie]

The CDC was simply doing what doctors and scientific researches do, they were studying the effects of bullets on people that were killed by guns. They were not studying policy or law. For some reason, the gun advocates didn't like it and decided to defund that research.
Do you think lawyers and procecutors should be the ones doing medical research into the trauma of gun shots?

The following were the authors on a report to see if there was a link between firearms laws and firearms deaths - "Firearms Laws and the Reduction of Violence - A Systematic Review" from the CDC site.

"Robert A. Hahn, PhD, MPH, Oleg Bilukha, MD, PhD, Alex Crosby, MD, MPH, Mindy T. Fullilove, MD, Akiva Liberman, PhD, Eve Moscicki, ScD, MPH, Susan Snyder, PhD, Farris Tuma, ScD, Peter A. Briss, MD, MPH, Task Force on Community Preventive Services"

I am quite sure that lot are capable of authoring such a report. What you need a researchers to do research. Doctors and lawyers are trained in research, as are most people with a degree education.

I have linked to that report before and the result was inconclusive, they did not feel they had enough information to make an accurate assessment.

 

[Nessie]

FWIW, I have always lived in the UK, and as a schoolboy have fired NATO standard ammunition (5.56mm) albeit from a bolt-action rifle (the L98. variant of the then-unpopular SA80). Friends also fired fully automatic weapons (Bren gun). This was in the school cadet corps, in a state school, which was common in local schools but fairly rare elsewhere.

Like Multivac I never felt the need to own a gun, indeed for as long as I can remember, in the UK significant interest in guns has been considered not only unhealthy but the preserve of losers who read "Guns and Ammo" magazine* and will always live with their parents.


*Several steps below trainspotters.

Sorry you have that opinion, but I have never come across it. UK gun owners primarily live in the countryside and their guns are tools to kill vermin like foxes or for population control like deer or hunting like grouse.

You characterisation is also not true. I know because I a have dealt with firearms licensing and I am one of those people who do the research on which decisions to grant or deny firearms licences are based. The typical UK gun licence holder is a middle aged male who either needs a gun as a tool, in which case the go for small bore rifles or shotguns to control vermin or for hunting or sport in which case they go for more powerful rifles for deer or shotguns for clays or game or high powered air guns and certain pistols approved for targets.

They live in their own home and are normal family guys. They take safety and security of their guns very, very seriously and to have a gun stolen or used without authorisation would be the worst thing that could happen to them. The shame would be terrible for them. They also have no intention or desire to use their gun to shoot at someone to prevent crime and if they were subject to a home invasion their attitude would be keep the gun safe and not present it at the criminal. You probably do not know of anyone with a gun as gun owners do not publisise they have one. That is because they regard secrecy of having and especially transporting a gun as a very important part of gun safety and security.

If you want to meet a decent, honest, down to earth, calm, secure, respectable person, meet a UK gun owner.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

Neither of the weapons used by this nut are likely to ever be even restricted here in the states.

 

[Nessie]

Then you'd be wrong. The majority of people in the UK have not even seen a firearm close up, outside of a museum, and there is little interest in guns. A desire to own guns on the part of people who have no practical use (e.g. vermin control) for them is seen as strange.

That depends on where you live. I have lived in rural areas where many of my neighbours had guns. The used them to hunt, vermin control and one shot clays for the Scottish National Team. They are not strange in the slightest, you just think that because you have never met one.

 

[Nessie]

I really doubt that interest in guns in the UK is considered strange, given it's rich history of wonderful gunmaking, which continues today.

I think the UK has a thriving gun culture, based around the guns that are available to the citizens.

They just don't have the variety available, but they do quite well with what they have as far as clubs and ranges and organizations and traditions, etc.

You are spot on with that assessment. There is a shooting range not too far from me when there is a thriving group of enthusiasts who merrily blast away with muskets and powder pistols in all sorts of competitions. That they like to dress up as cowboys and Indians and do line dancing after a shoot is all part of the fun.

I have held a rifle used at the Battle of Little Bighorn (the collector assured me it was verified as such), a Lee Enfield rife used in WWI, an SS officer's Luger taken from his dead body during WWII and smuggled back to the UK as a trophy and finally a rifle that is kept as a family heirloom by a lady to go along with the Victoria Cross her father was posthumously awarded. That one gave me goosebumps to see.

The British contributors to this thread have got it very wrong in they way they describe British gun owners.

 

[Nessie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

Neither of the weapons used by this nut are likely to ever be even restricted here in the states.

It is the same in the UK. There is only so much you can do. No one expects perfection.

 

[Dcdrac]

there is a sensible gun culture in the UK that accepts the restrictions on it with good grace and has the sense to understand why those restrictions are in place.

 

[Rat]

The British contributors to this thread have got it very wrong in they way they describe British gun owners.

You appear to have made a couple of mistakes here. The quote was "significant interest in guns", not owning a gun. We're not talking about people who simply own guns, and that was explicitly made clear in a post to which you directly responded. Secondly, neither Jimbob nor Zooterkin seemed to me to be talking about what gun enthusiasts are like, but how they are viewed by others. In that, I would say, they are right.

 

[zooterkin]

That depends on where you live. I have lived in rural areas where many of my neighbours had guns. The used them to hunt, vermin control and one shot clays for the Scottish National Team. They are not strange in the slightest, you just think that because you have never met one.

Please show where I said I thought they were strange.

 

[triforcharity]

Rat, somewhat of an aside, but are you a gun owner? Just curious. Based on what I've seen you post, you're somewhat neutral, for the most part.

 

[Rat]

Rat, somewhat of an aside, but are you a gun owner? Just curious. Based on what I've seen you post, you're somewhat neutral, for the most part.

Nope. Went clay shooting a few times many years ago, and used to enjoy shooting airguns at targets, but never really fired anything else. I was very much against the restrictions we had after Hungerford and Dunblane, but, having seen the effects they've had, have come around to think that it was a good thing. I wish we could all own whatever guns we wanted without consequences, but there is no way that can happen. However responsible I am, when guns are freely available, we've seen the result.

 

[zooterkin]

You are spot on with that assessment. There is a shooting range not too far from me when there is a thriving group of enthusiasts who merrily blast away with muskets and powder pistols in all sorts of competitions. That they like to dress up as cowboys and Indians and do line dancing after a shoot is all part of the fun.

Oh, my.

I have held a rifle used at the Battle of Little Bighorn (the collector assured me it was verified as such), a Lee Enfield rife used in WWI, an SS officer's Luger taken from his dead body during WWII and smuggled back to the UK as a trophy and finally a rifle that is kept as a family heirloom by a lady to go along with the Victoria Cross her father was posthumously awarded. That one gave me goosebumps to see.

The British contributors to this thread have got it very wrong in they way they describe British gun owners.

As Rat says, I was not describing British gun owners, I was describing how British gun owners are regarded by the majority of the British population.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but I'm unusual by British standards in that I have actually handled firearms. I shot .22 rifle as a member of a club, I've been clay pigeon shooting, and I've handled my sister's and her husband's handguns, back when they did Practical Pistol shooting (my sister represented the UK).

 

[Dcdrac]

I had a twelve bore shotgun and dad an old lee Enfield 303 we used to use.

 

[triforcharity]

Nope. Went clay shooting a few times many years ago, and used to enjoy shooting airguns at targets, but never really fired anything else. I was very much against the restrictions we had after Hungerford and Dunblane, but, having seen the effects they've had, have come around to think that it was a good thing. I wish we could all own whatever guns we wanted without consequences, but there is no way that can happen. However responsible I am, when guns are freely available, we've seen the result.

Ok, maybe I read your posts wrong.

Cheers Sir!

 

[Nessie]

FWIW, I have always lived in the UK, and as a schoolboy have fired NATO standard ammunition (5.56mm) albeit from a bolt-action rifle (the L98. variant of the then-unpopular SA80). Friends also fired fully automatic weapons (Bren gun). This was in the school cadet corps, in a state school, which was common in local schools but fairly rare elsewhere.

Like Multivac I never felt the need to own a gun, indeed for as long as I can remember, in the UK significant interest in guns has been considered not only unhealthy but the preserve of losers who read "Guns and Ammo" magazine* and will always live with their parents.


*Several steps below trainspotters.

I was just highlighting what the situation in the UK is. *There*, interest in guns is generally considered strange.

I really doubt that interest in guns in the UK is considered strange, given it's rich history of wonderful gunmaking, which continues today.

Then you'd be wrong. The majority of people in the UK have not even seen a firearm close up, outside of a museum, and there is little interest in guns. A desire to own guns on the part of people who have no practical use (e.g. vermin control) for them is seen as strange.

Certainly the gun culture that exists is well organised, and has a long tradition. The fact remains that it is very much a minority pastime, which most people view with suspicion.

OK now I accept you guys do not think British gun owners are strange or losers. I just wanted make sure that our American cousins got an accurate picture of what UK gun owners are really like, not the picture you were painting of them by describing others attitudes.

 

[GeeMack]

I don't know [* Irrelevant blathering snipped. *]

None of that dishonest sidestepping supports your claim that "[...] the non NRA gun owners are still a force which is anti-gun control." You've been willfully ignorant of hundreds of comments from gun owners in these threads which clearly show that to be untrue. In your zeal to rationalize your fear, you've abandoned critical thinking. Your arguments are essentially arrogant preaching. And in some case you are simply a liar. The Gish Gallop you liberally employ here is a dishonest tactic on which to build a productive discussion.

You're calling all the gun owners in the US irresponsible and all the non-gun-owners incompetent for being incapable of fixing the system that doesn't even affect you. Bottom line, insulting everyone in the US isn't a compelling argument. It's not going to change a thing. It's self righteous sermonizing which has devolved to the extent that your arguments aren't even honest. Your problem has nothing to do with guns or gun owners. The people who can help you with it aren't here on this forum.

OK now I accept you guys do not think British gun owners are strange or losers. I just wanted make sure that our American cousins got an accurate picture of what UK gun owners are really like, not the picture you were painting of them by describing others attitudes.

Given your dishonest insistence on mis-characterising the gun owners in the US, why does it matter to you how people perceive British gun owners?

 

[Nessie]

None of that dishonest sidestepping supports your claim that "[...] the non NRA gun owners are still a force which is anti-gun control." You've been willfully ignorant of hundreds of comments from gun owners in these threads which clearly show that to be untrue. In your zeal to rationalize your fear, you've abandoned critical thinking. Your arguments are essentially arrogant preaching. And in some case you are simply a liar. The Gish Gallop you liberally employ here is a dishonest tactic on which to build a productive discussion.

This poll shows that the majority of non NRA gun owners are closer to the NRA members in terms of most forms of gun control than they are to others. No guns for the mentally ill and a five day waiting period are all they in the majority for.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...gun-owners-vs-the-nra-what-the-polling-shows/

So I am correct in saying behind the NRA extremists there is a majority of gun owners who in a majority agreement with their policies.

You're calling all the gun owners in the US irresponsible and all the non-gun-owners incompetent for being incapable of fixing the system that doesn't even affect you. Bottom line, insulting everyone in the US isn't a compelling argument. It's not going to change a thing. It's self righteous sermonizing which has devolved to the extent that your arguments aren't even honest. Your problem has nothing to do with guns or gun owners. The people who can help you with it aren't here on this forum.

Given your dishonest insistence on mis-characterising the gun owners in the US, why does it matter to you how people perceive British gun owners?

Yet I have evidenced the problem and inability to deal with it. I suspect your inability to evidence anything is a reason why you cannot deal with evidence and instead prefer to witter on.