School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[Checkmite]

Well no guys, unfortunately I've been informed by all sorts of blogs over the last couple of days that speculating whether the shooter had to be mentally disturbed to kill a couple of classes full of first-graders is actually unfairly scapegoating mental illness and the autistic, so we must drop that line of inquiry.

Since the gun lobby has described speculation that guns are responsible the same way and told us we must drop that line of inquiry, we're left with having to "do something" that involves not suggesting the school shooter was mentally disturbed or that guns had anything to do with it. Any ideas?

 

[BenBurch]

... Any ideas?

I say we get a sap and a burlap bag, and use both on anybody who makes arguments like that.

 

[joesixpack]

Well no guys, unfortunately I've been informed by all sorts of blogs over the last couple of days that speculating whether the shooter had to be mentally disturbed to kill a couple of classes full of first-graders is actually unfairly scapegoating mental illness and the autistic, so we must drop that line of inquiry.

Since the gun lobby has described speculation that guns are responsible the same way and told us we must drop that line of inquiry, we're left with having to "do something" that involves not suggesting the school shooter was mentally disturbed or that guns had anything to do with it. Any ideas?

Good thing that's a false dilemma, otherwise it would matter.

But really, if we do absolutely nothing about it in terms of school security, mental health, and gun control we would STILL have schools far safer than the average home, where more children die.

As I always say, Horrible crimes are generally the foundation for horrible laws. Did you know more kids have died as a result of organized sports than have been killed in school mass shootings? 36 kids died as a result of playing high school football (in practice or in games) from 2001- 2011.

 

[Polaris]

Good thing that's a false dilemma, otherwise it would matter.

But really, if we do absolutely nothing about it in terms of school security, mental health, and gun control we would STILL have schools far safer than the average home, where more children die.

As I always say, Horrible crimes are generally the foundation for horrible laws. Did you know more kids have died as a result of organized sports than have been killed in school mass shootings? 11 kids died as a result of playing high school football (in practice or in games) during 2011.

I find it telling that some of the things mentioned in this thread (high school football, swimming pools, etc.) kill more people than "high powered semiautomatic weapons of war designed for solely to kill".

 

[Ziggurat]

11 kids died as a result of playing high school football (in practice or in games) during 2011.

And it's not even the most dangerous high school sport

That distinction goes to cheerleading, IIRC.

 

[Checkmite]

Good thing that's a false dilemma, otherwise it would matter.

But really, if we do absolutely nothing about it in terms of school security, mental health, and gun control we would STILL have schools far safer than the average home, where more children die.

Well if that's true, then you're right - I guess we don't "have to" do anything really.

As I always say, Horrible crimes are generally the foundation for horrible laws. Did you know more kids have died as a result of organized sports than have been killed in school mass shootings? 36 kids died as a result of playing high school football (in practice or in games) from 2001- 2011.

Well no, that's not true; what you mean to say is that 36 kids died from medical emergencies like dehydration or cardiac arrest preceded by a physical activity which happened to be football. I have a hunch that if you changed the arbitrary variable from "football" to "physical activity of any kind, including but not limited to football", you will find that many, many more than 36 kids died in the last ten years of the same causes.

 

[Checkmite]

I find it telling that some of the things mentioned in this thread (high school football, swimming pools, etc.) kill more people than "high powered semiautomatic weapons of war designed for solely to kill".

Do you think the number of people "killed by football" in a year even comes close to the number of people killed by firearms in the space of a single month?

Frankly I find it a little difficult to believe that the number of people who drowned this year in swimming pools outnumbers those killed by firearms.

 

[GeeMack]

Well no, that's not true; what you mean to say is that 36 kids died from medical emergencies like dehydration or cardiac arrest preceded by a physical activity which happened to be football. I have a hunch that if you changed the arbitrary variable from "football" to "physical activity of any kind, including but not limited to football", you will find that many, many more than 36 kids died in the last ten years of the same causes.

Not as a result of, but preceded by? If those kids hadn't been playing or practicing football, they would still have died at that time from those causes. It just wouldn't have been after playing or practicing for football. Yeah, that seems like a rational way to frame the argument.

 

[Checkmite]

Not as a result of, but preceded by? If those kids hadn't been playing or practicing football, they would still have died at that time from those causes. It just wouldn't have been after playing or practicing for football. Yeah, that seems like a rational way to frame the argument.

Cardiac arrest can happen at any time, during any physical exertion (in fact, it can happen without physical exertion at all). Likewise, dehydration can only happen when a person hasn't been drinking enough water for a prolonged period; it can't happen in a couple of minutes or hours of "football practice". So yes.

 

[Polaris]

Do you think the number of people "killed by football" in a year even comes close to the number of people killed by firearms in the space of a single month?

Frankly I find it a little difficult to believe that the number of people who drowned this year in swimming pools outnumbers those killed by firearms.

I'm not talking about all firearms. I'm talking the "assault weapons" people have an irrational fear of and are talking about banning.

 

[joesixpack]

And it's not even the most dangerous high school sport

That distinction goes to cheerleading, IIRC.

I had to edit that because I drew from the wrong column.

 

[Autolite]

Well no guys, unfortunately I've been informed by all sorts of blogs over the last couple of days that speculating whether the shooter had to be mentally disturbed to kill a couple of classes full of first-graders is actually unfairly scapegoating mental illness and the autistic, so we must drop that line of inquiry.

Since the gun lobby has described speculation that guns are responsible the same way and told us we must drop that line of inquiry, we're left with having to "do something" that involves not suggesting the school shooter was mentally disturbed or that guns had anything to do with it. Any ideas?

Well, here in Canada, whenever a nut-bar shoots up a school in Quebec folks like to put all the blame on the ranchers and farmers in Alberta for not registering their gopher guns.

Perhaps try working a similar angle in the States sand see what the results might be...

 

[joesixpack]

Well no, that's not true; what you mean to say is that 36 kids died from medical emergencies like dehydration or cardiac arrest preceded by a physical activity which happened to be football. I have a hunch that if you changed the arbitrary variable from "football" to "physical activity of any kind, including but not limited to football", you will find that many, many more than 36 kids died in the last ten years of the same causes.

No, the chart I drew that data from was from death as a direct result of injuries. Cardiac arrest seem to go into the "indirect" category, ans includes heat stroke, and blood clot as well.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2YHoAw&usg=AFQjCNF1529zREfFThw-y0nFpKsUJHwH7g

Sorry if you are in the middle of quoting this, I had to edit it substantially because I made a mess of it the first time

 

[GeeMack]

Cardiac arrest can happen at any time, during any physical exertion (in fact, it can happen without physical exertion at all). Likewise, dehydration can only happen when a person hasn't been drinking enough water for a prolonged period; it can't happen in a couple of minutes or hours of "football practice". So yes.

I'm sure you'll be able to provide the evidence for your implied claim that high school kids are dropping dead from cardiac arrest and dehydration at the same rate whether before, after, or not at all involved in playing or practicing football.

 

[Checkmite]

I'm not talking about all firearms. I'm talking the "assault weapons" people have an irrational fear of and are talking about banning.

The talk about "assault weapons" isn't based on an irrational fear of those weapons; it's a compromise. Obviously it's no secret that all firearms present that danger (which is why you can only bring up silliness like "football and swimming pool deaths" when you've narrowed the comparison down to a very small category of firearms). However, assault weapons are the easiest to enact controls on because most sane firearms proponents aren't willing to try to argue that the components and capabilities that make a weapon an "assault weapon" can be defended by the spirit of the Second Amendment.

I personally feel controls on semi-automatic weapons in general would make more sense; but then the "cold, dead hands" bells start to ring.

As a macabre aside, the shooter figuratively pried the weapons he took to the school with him from his mother's cold, dead hands. I wonder if any of them were taken that way in the more literal sense.

 

[Kestrel]

Do you think the number of people "killed by football" in a year even comes close to the number of people killed by firearms in the space of a single month?

Frankly I find it a little difficult to believe that the number of people who drowned this year in swimming pools outnumbers those killed by firearms.

CDC Injury Mortality data shows it's not even close.

2010, United States
Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24, Y35.0,*U01.4



Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Deaths Population Rate Rate**
31,672 308,745,538 10.26 10.07

2010, United States
Drowning Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W65-W74,X71,X92,Y21



Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Deaths Population Rate Rate**
4,521 308,745,538 1.46 1.45

 

[joesixpack]

CDC Injury Mortality data shows it's not even close.

2010, United States
Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24, Y35.0,*U01.4



Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Deaths Population Rate Rate**
31,672 308,745,538 10.26 10.07

2010, United States
Drowning Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W65-W74,X71,X92,Y21



Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Deaths Population Rate Rate**
4,521 308,745,538 1.46 1.45

I forget who posted the swimming pool comparison earlier, but I do remember that the qualifier was "children 4 years old and under". I think that is probably true as children in that age category are rarely killed by firearms.

Please keep in mind that when statistics are compiled and thrown around they don't always mean what you think they mean. For example, "Children" means anyone under the age of 18. Far more kids in the 15-18 category are killed by firearms than below the age of ten. However, when "children killed by firearms" is listed, it includes a very high risk group of teen age males mixed in with what our emotional mind thinks of as "children".

Yes, teen aged boys being killed by gun violence is horrible, but there is a far different societal context and a very different sort of solution that should be applied to them. In other words, child-proofing and trigger locks aren't going to address that problem any more than childproofing a bleach bottle will prevent a teen from opening it. And addressing teen gang violence is not going to directly engage the problem of school mass shooters.

ETA I can't make heads or tails of your numbers by the way.

 

[AlBell]

...

Personally, I think the success of a gun ban in the US at this point in time can be extrapolated by looking at places where guns and other weapons are already virtually banned, like in schools.

We can invite all US residents who favor bans to post a sign in their yards and workplaces "Gun Free Zone".

 

[Sunstealer]

Mentally ill people should not be able to defend themselves have access to guns.

What about mothers of mentally ill sons?

 

[Polaris]

The talk about "assault weapons" isn't based on an irrational fear of those weapons; it's a compromise. Obviously it's no secret that all firearms present that danger (which is why you can only bring up silliness like "football and swimming pool deaths" when you've narrowed the comparison down to a very small category of firearms). However, assault weapons are the easiest to enact controls on because most sane firearms proponents aren't willing to try to argue that the components and capabilities that make a weapon an "assault weapon" can be defended by the spirit of the Second Amendment.

I personally feel controls on semi-automatic weapons in general would make more sense; but then the "cold, dead hands" bells start to ring.

As a macabre aside, the shooter figuratively pried the weapons he took to the school with him from his mother's cold, dead hands. I wonder if any of them were taken that way in the more literal sense.

A compromise that does no good, though. It's a cynical ploy to avoid doing anything that would require the hard work to actually cut down on violence, and it does so by going after a small segment of gun owners because they're unpopular - which you proved already by poisoning the well. I'm pretty sure the spirit of the Constitution in general is against picking on a minority because it's possible to do so.