School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[zeggman]

I'm just trying to picture this scenario. A woman walking down the street gets held up by a guy who points a gun at her and demands her handbag. She has a gun concealed on her person. She goes to grab it but since the crim already has his weapon pointed at her she gets shot. How does having a gun equalise anything?

How about this scenario: A woman is walking alone at night, and notices that someone who is following her is closing rapidly. She reaches into her handbag and retrieves her gun, so when he blocks her way and orders her into an alley, she is ready to refuse.

 

[Ashles]

We can "What if" things all day. What if this young man had more access to mental health care. Would he have grabbed the guns? What if the mother had not been a gun fan? What if the law stated that principals will be trained and proficient with an M4 rifle and keep one locked up in their office at all times? Would that not have reduced the fatality count? What if scenarios can be fun and ridiculous at the same time.

And yet strangely they're pretty much the basis of laws and guidelines we have about restricting dangerous substances.

 

[Quad4_72]

It's largely irrational. While civilians do sometimes successfully use a firearm to defend themselves, such use is comparatively rare.

Be careful with that statement, as there is not enough evidence to support it. Self defense with a firearm is not something that is really statistically tracked and reported. For example, I have successfully defended myself with a firearm twice, and there is no official record of it. If someone is attempting to break into your home, and you point your firearm at them and say "Get the **** out of here or I'll shoot!" and the perp leaves that incident doesn't necessarily get recorded.

 

[LTC8K6]

THE US is awash with guns so its going to be difficult to change that hwoever a reasoable start is:

1. Stop all sales of Automatics and Semi Automatics to civillians there is no plausilbe reasonable reason for civilians to have those.

2. Restrict guns to licenced fire ranges where they can be kept safely.

Semi-autos are very common weapons used for everything from recreation, target, plinking, competition, hunting, etc.

Full autos are already very hard to get, and pretty much never used in crimes.

The North Hollywood incident was done with illegally modified chinese sks rifles.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I wonder if it is even possible to roll back firearms violence in the US.

Here's why:
The US has had a gun culture for centuries, during this time many guns have "leaked" into the black market.
Guns, unlike cartons of fresh milk, do not have an expiration date. If you don't mistreat them and oil them once in a while, they keep working for 100 years or more.
I used to shoot a M1 carbine, a gun from WWII. You can buy old Russian rifles from that war that work fine.
Restrict guns, or completely outlaw them and criminals in the US will have a pool of guns that will take forever to run out, even without the illegal import of new ones.

To reduce mass shootings, throwing money at mental health care makes much more sense.

 

[Quad4_72]

And yet strangely they're pretty much the basis of laws and guidelines we have about restricting dangerous substances.

You are right. Perhaps we should just make illegal and ban substances such as meth and cocaine. Do you think that will significantly cut down on overdoses and deaths from those substances?

 

[Dcdrac]

I wonder if it is even possible to roll back firearms violence in the US.

Here's why:
The US has had a gun culture for centuries, during this time many guns have "leaked" into the black market.
Guns, unlike cartons of fresh milk, do not have an expiration date. If you don't mistreat them and oil them once in a while, they keep working for 100 years or more.
I used to shoot a M1 carbine, a gun from WWII. You can buy old Russian rifles from that war that work fine.
Restrict guns, or completely outlaw them and criminals in the US will have a pool of guns that will take forever to run out, even without the illegal import of new ones.

To reduce mass shootings, throwing money at mental health care makes much more sense.

have a twin track approach have some small measures to control access to guns and stop the sale of automatics and semi automatics to civillians, as well as better mental health care provison.

 

[zeggman]

When people can carry swimming pools around and go on a killing spree with them, I'll consider your question as valid.

So the number of deaths is irrelevant, it's the portability?

Fine, more children are killed by automobiles. Not as portable as guns, but still more portable than swimming pools. Do you advocate banning them, or are those hundreds of innocent deaths every year part of the price of freedom?

Incidentally, if my President's rhetoric last night is any indication, he's uncomfortable with viewing these deaths as part of the price of freedom, though he didn't say why.

 

[zeggman]

Be careful with that statement, as there is not enough evidence to support it. Self defense with a firearm is not something that is really statistically tracked and reported. For example, I have successfully defended myself with a firearm twice, and there is no official record of it. If someone is attempting to break into your home, and you point your firearm at them and say "Get the **** out of here or I'll shoot!" and the perp leaves that incident doesn't necessarily get recorded.

Good point.

 

[LTC8K6]

Which brings us back to why I can't go and buy myself some heroin, for example.

It may bring you back to that...

I don't equate taking heroin with owning a Marlin, and I have no idea how anyone could.

Be that as it may, I really don't care what drugs you choose to use in the privacy of your home...

 

[BStrong]

or that is your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment....it actually says the individual has a right to bear arms as a member of a militia aso to whether this militia is a state army or not is open to debate.

Again, better read Heller.

Or do you wish to assert that your ruling has authority over the Supreme Court of the United States?

 

[Noztradamus]

When Bible Believing Christians demand a say in how biology is taught in schools, a great many people ridicule them.

When it comes to guns, those same people feel free to demand the same say, with equal lack of knowledge, understanding, or thought.

Making people keep their guns under lock and key at the firing range would have done it in this case I believe, since the killer used family-owned guns.

And yet you still can't even slightly change your preferred hobby to be on a firing range rather than sometimes with your buddies on a farm?

Obviously such restrictions wouldn't stop all future massacres (no measures will ever manage to fully eradicate mass killings). But maybe it would prevent a couple? And wouldn't that be preferable?

2. Restrict guns to licenced fire ranges where they can be kept safely.

Kevin, you miss this 14 guns stolen in naval base theft November 30th, 2012

FOURTEEN weapons have been stolen from a Darwin navy base patrol boat in what has been described as a breach of national security.

Commander Richard Bryson said two pump-action shot guns and 12 semi-automatic pistols were taken when an intruder - dressed in military uniform and a balaclava - "overpowered" a leading seaman on picket duty on HMAS Bathurst moored at HMAS Coonawarra Navy Base.

(sorry I haven't found a more recent case, but they occur all the time.)

I'm sure the Bandidos, Comancheros, Four Aces, Gypsy Jokers, Muslims, and Rebels would be delighted to add gun ranges to the one stop shop list of military and police armouries.

 

[LTC8K6]

have a twin track approach have som small measures to control access to guns and sto the sale of automatics and semi automatics to civillians, as well as better mental health care provison.

Again, automatic weapons have been heavily restricted since 1934/1968.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons

 

[BStrong]

When Bible Believing Christians demand a say in how biology is taught in schools, a great many people ridicule them.

When it comes to guns, those same people feel free to demand the same say, with equal lack of knowledge, understanding, or thought.






Kevin, you miss this 14 guns stolen in naval base theft November 30th, 2012


(sorry I haven't found a more recent case, but they occur all the time.)

I'm sure the Bandidos, Comancheros, Four Aces, Gypsy Jokers, Muslims, and Rebels would be delighted to add gun ranges to the one stop shop list of military and police armouries.

Well stated.

 

[Dcdrac]

They need to retricted ven more then and totally cut off from the civillian popuation.

 

[Ashles]

You are right. Perhaps we should just make illegal and ban substances such as meth and cocaine. Do you think that will significantly cut down on overdoses and deaths from those substances?

Yes I think overdoses, deaths and injury to others (directly or due to, for example, driving under the influence) is less due to them being illegal than it would be if they were legal. Are you going to propose otherwise?

 

[joesixpack]

It's largely irrational. While civilians do sometimes successfully use a firearm to defend themselves, such use is comparatively rare.

The data gives a murky picture. I really don't know how often and how effective privately owned guns are used in self defense. I wish there were a way to study this. Even the Harvard study seems to rely on self reporting, anecdote, and judgment by the interviewer.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/researc...n-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

 

[LTC8K6]

IIRC, Bonnie and Clyde stole nearly all of their weapons from the military.

 

[LTC8K6]

They need to retricted ven more then and totally cut off from the civillian popuation.

That won't do anything about the criminals or the mentally ill, though.

Criminals and the mentally ill pay no attention to rules and regulations.

 

[tyr_13]

You either approve of weapons specifically designed to cause harm to human beings or you don't.

Sure you can spend time trying to stay on the imaginary moral high ground of the slippery slope, but eventually you end up at the bottom.

So you're back in opposition of martial arts.