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School shooting: but don't mention guns!

Ranges cost money, and many times are out of the way. You really think my rifle on a farm is the problem here?

Yes, you might have to modify your hobby so that other people might be kept safe. Lots of people have to travel and spend money if they are as passionate about their hobby as you clearly are. And their hobbies don't usually involve weapons.

I'm sure a week ago if we had asked that boy's mother whether her specific guns were the problem she'd have said no. The point of a lot of laws and restrictions is you don't actually know beforehand who will misuse things and choose to break the law. Or even who is very casual about gun safety at home, allowing someone else to do terrible things. Many such restrictions are already in place in every country I can think of.

I'm just amazed you don't appear to want to do anything at all to try to prevent any such future instances.
 
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Every time you post, a picture of a gun (an instrument of violence) appears.

So in other words, you have no evidence whatsoever that I glorify guns and violence. Thanks for clearing that up.


I didn't suggest it didn't happen elsewhere.

The US list is hugely, significantly longer. Why do you think that is?

You did suggest it by asking me this:
How many mass school shootings have taken place elsewhere in the world with any kind of weapon?

And I believe the list may be longer because we have more crazy people here. A mental health issue that needs to be addressed.
 
While I do understad how entrenched attachment to guns is in some pars of the USA, I really do not get the almost "I will stop breathing" ttitudue about autos and semi autos.

It will take time and small steps to change things, I really do not buy they we musht have guns in our hsoues to stop tyranny thing either, if a Government if is gong to turn like that a few members of the NRA are not fgoing to stop them for long.
 
Yes, you might have to modify your hobby so that other people might be kept safe. Lots of people have to travel and spend money if they are as passionate about their hobby as you clearly are. And their hobbies don't usually involve weapons.

I'm sure a week ago if we had asked that boy's mother whether her specific guns were the problem she'd have said no. The point of a lot of laws and restrictions is you don't actually know beforehand who will misuse things and choose to break the law. Or even who is very casual about gun safety at home, allowing someone else to do terrible things. Many such restrictions are already in place in every country I can think of.

I'm just amazed you don't appear to want to do anything at all to try to prevent any such future instances.

No, I should not have to modify my hobby/right just because of a few disturbed people.
 
This is just silly. So no one should have the right to self defense?

In Canada, privately owned firearms cannot generally be carried or made easily accessible in the home for self defense. It is in fact illegal in almost all cases. Carry permits can be issued by are severely restricted. I believe that there are only a few hundred active carry permits in the whole country.

The concept of a civilian being armed for their own personal security is regarded with disgust by many Canadians. It seems that self preservation has become politically incorrect.

What percentage of Americans are leaning in this direction???
 
In Canada, privately owned firearms cannot generally be carried or made easily accessible in the home for self defense. It is in fact illegal in almost all cases. Carry permits can be issued by are severely restricted. I believe that there are only a few hundred active carry permits in the whole country.

The concept of a civilian being armed for their own personal security is regarded with disgust by many Canadians. It seems that self preservation has become politically incorrect.

What percentage of Americans are leaning in this direction???

I have no idea what percentage of Americans are leaning in this direction. Do you?
 
or that is your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment....it actually says the individual has a right to bear arms as a member of a militia aso to whether this militia is a state army or not is open to debate.
 
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No, you didn't fix anything. As the law currently states, it is my right to bear arms. So until you ratify the constitution, it is my right.

Nobody was proposing you not be able to own guns. Just changes to where you could carry/shoot them, and what size/type of gun could be kept in your home.

And, in case you aren't aware, you already have restrictions around all of these points already - your 'right to bear arms' does not permit you to carry whatever 'arms' you like wherever you like.
So the above changes would actualy not alter your 'right', merely the interpretation of that right (which is never going to be fully agreed by everyone, no matter where the limitations are set).

The argument is not to remove or change the Second Amendment but to make changes to the interpretation of that right (which as I understand has changed over time and varies from state to state anyway).

We are already aware that you personally do not want any changes to the interpretation as it might affect your hobby.
Let's hope those actually in charge of making such decisions are able to see a larger picture than that.
 
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I have no idea what percentage of Americans are leaning in this direction. Do you?

No, I don't know but I am curious to find out.

Americans in general have always seemed to respect the individual's right to protect themselves from serious bodily harm. I am wondering if that attitude is now changing, and if so, how far...
 
Nobody was proposing you not be able to own guns. Just changes to where you could carry/shoot them, and what size/type of gun could be kept in your home.

And, in case you aren't aware, you already have restrictions around all of these points already - your 'right to bear arms' does not permit you to carry whatever 'arms' you like wherever you like.
So the above changes would actualy not alter your 'right', merely the interpretation of that right (which is never going to be fully agreed by everyone, no matter where the limitations are set).

The argument is not to remove or change the Second Amendment but to make changes to the interpretation of that right (which as I understand has changed over time and vary from state to state anyway).

We are already aware that you personally do not want any changes to the interpretation as it might affect your hobby.
Let's hope those actually in charge of making such decisions are able to see a larger picture than that.

It's not just about a hobby, it's about something bigger then that. It's about the right to own those weapons for not only a hobby, but personal defense as well. The actions of a few disturbed individuals should not be the reason we all should have to give up a right. So if these laws were made to change where you can carry/shoot guns, would that have prevented the tragedy? Hell, it is already illegal to carry in a school and obviously shoot inside of a school. They even had "No firearms" signs posted! How did that not prevent the shooting!?
 
Nobody was proposing you not be able to own guns.

Interesting assertion considering that that's exactly what some posting here are advocating.

When you say 'nobody', did you imply that to mean yourself???
 
I would draw the line at automatics and semi atuomatics no day to day average person needs one of those.
 
I would draw the line at automatics and semi atuomatics no day to day average person needs one of those.

Ok this is the 3rd time you have stated this, and this is the 3rd time I will ask you the same questions. What is your basis for saying that these weapons should be banned? Please show me the overwhelming evidence that semi auto and especially full auto weapons are the problem in the United States.
 
I would draw the line at automatics and semi atuomatics no day to day average person needs one of those.

What about those long range .50 calibre bolt action 'sniper' rifles. You're okay then with those those being in private hands???
 
It's not just about a hobby, it's about something bigger then that. It's about the right to own those weapons for not only a hobby, but personal defense as well. The actions of a few disturbed individuals should not be the reason we all should have to give up a right. So if these laws were made to change where you can carry/shoot guns, would that have prevented the tragedy? Hell, it is already illegal to carry in a school and obviously shoot inside of a school. They even had "No firearms" signs posted! How did that not prevent the shooting!?

If you genuinely, I mean genuinely are not able to grasp the concept that if the mother's guns had been locked up at a firing range instead of at her house, this tragedy might not have happened (or might have involved fewer fatalities) then it's hard to know how to make it any clearer.

The potential actions of a few disturbed individuals (not the vast majority of innocent benign people) are why we ALREADY restrict access to a whole range of dangerous substances, biological, radioactive, chemical, explosive etc.
You already have your 'rights' restricted as to where you can go and what you can do because of the safety of the larger population.
So continually holding up your 'rights' as some kind of indicator that you should be allowed to do whatever you want is rather silly. You already can't.
 
Why does this gun debate always seem to become so insanely polarised? All I hear talk of is people who want guns banned and people who blindly deny guns have any affect on violence whatsoever.
Probably because you only hear what you want to hear. I think the number and availability of guns contributes to the level of violence, but I do not want to see them banned. As I have mentioned before, I neither own nor want to own a gun myself.

Is there any western country in the world that has outright banned guns? I can't think of one off the top of my head. The issue is gun control isn't it? Does anyone seriously think the solution is to totally ban firearms?
Such people definitely exist. Japan has essentially banned civilian ownership of firearms and swords, and plenty of people cite the low homicide rate there as a reason to implement the same policy here.

But I'd like to point out, because it's a fact that's often misused, that a number of decidedly peaceful western countries have a lot of guns. New Zealand has one of the highest numbers of gun per capita in the western world - in fact because guns aren't registered here we actually have no idea how many guns we have - and yet we still have an unarmed police force and very low rates of violent crime. Many Scandinavian countries have incredibly high levels of gun ownership, likewise with very low crime. Gun ownership is clearly not the issue.
Agreed.

This is the root of the issue. This is really the fulcrum on which the entire US gun debate rests. Why is it that citizens of the USA feel they need a firearm for protection, and not the citizens of every single other western country?
It's largely irrational. While civilians do sometimes successfully use a firearm to defend themselves, such use is comparatively rare.

And I don't mean that as a sort of snide "Americans are paranoid" or "Americans are scared". I ask this question quite seriously.
Nevertheless, I think "paranoid" is the answer. We have had a few home invasion robberies, in which a weapon, if accessible, might arguably have made a difference. I don't know if such things happen in other countries.

Still, people are irrational about such things. I think all the security measures implemented after 9/11 are another irrational response. In many ways, having a gun in the home for defense is "security theater" for the homeowner.

I've made the point before that backyard pools kill more innocent people than spree killers, but such deaths don't make the national news. Someone else (maybe you?) pointed out that laws which required such pools to be properly fenced had cut down on deaths elsewhere. Your proposal to properly store and secure guns would seem to be the legislative equivalent, and I could certainly support something like that. From what I know of this latest tragedy, that's the only additional safeguard that might have made any difference.
 
THE US is awash with guns so its going to be difficult to change that hwoever a reasoable start is:

Glad you didn't say "reasonable"

1. Stop all sales of Automatics and Semi Automatics to civillians there is no plausilbe reasonable reason for civilians to have those.

Self defense seems a pretty plausible reason to me. Considering that police response time where I live is generally 20 minutes or more after 10:00 pm, I think having a firearm in the home is a rather prudent measure.

Also your distinction of "semi-auto" seems pretty silly, considering that a common revolver style in .357 and smaller calibers is both double action and has a capacity for 7 rounds, the same as many semi-auto pistols. Other than the length of trigger pull, the rate of fire is pretty much the same (and yes, they can be reloaded quite quickly). Banning fully automatic weapons seems rather pointless considering the number of people killed by them is insignificant.

Furthermore, "Plausibility" isn't the test of whether a right can be denied.


2. Restrict guns to licenced fire ranges where they can be kept safely.

And where they'd be useless in the event that I needed one.
 
If you genuinely, I mean genuinely are not able to grasp the concept that if the mother's guns had been locked up at a firing range instead of at her house, this tragedy might not have happened (or might have involved fewer fatalities) then it's hard to know how to make it any clearer.

We can "What if" things all day. What if this young man had more access to mental health care. Would he have grabbed the guns? What if the mother had not been a gun fan? What if the law stated that principals will be trained and proficient with an M4 rifle and keep one locked up in their office at all times? Would that not have reduced the fatality count? What if scenarios can be fun and ridiculous at the same time.

The potential actions of a few disturbed individuals (not the vast majority of innocent benign people) are why we ALREADY restrict access to a whole range of dangerous substances, biological, radioactive, chemical, explosive etc.
You already have your 'rights' restricted as to where you can go and what you can do because of the safety of the larger population.
So continually holding up your 'rights' as some kind of indicator that you should be allowed to do whatever you want is rather silly. You already can't.

I am aware that my rights are already restricted, and I am fine with that to a certain degree. But taking all guns away and making you lock them up at some range is too extreme.
 

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