• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

School shooting: but don't mention guns!

I seriously think that increased media coverage has had a large affect on the increase in these crimes. Prior to the advent of 24 hr news, when these things occurred it would be mentioned as the TOP STORY at 6 o'clock and would be on the front page of the newspaper. That's pretty much it. Now, however, cameras are on the scene, the shooter is psycholgicaly evaluated by pundits, survivors interviewed, books written...etc The shooters gain posthumous infamy. Troubled kids see this as a way to gain notoriety via getting "even" with those they perceived as wronging them.

I wonder if the increase in school and mass shootings in the USA coincides with the increase in news coverage ?
 
With the facts as they are being reported at the moment...

Right now, I am blaming the mother. She obviously has missed the warning signs that her son was becoming a danger to both himself and others. Also, she dismally failed in her responsibility as a gun owner in that she did not secure her weapons properly so that her mental son didn't have access to them.

Granted, she didn't pull the trigger. But this doesn't happen if she took the proper precautions.

Wrong. He would have found another way to kill everyone, according to many gun enthusiasts. 26 people would've been smothered with pillows rather than shot.
 
Wrong. He would have found another way to kill everyone, according to many gun enthusiasts. 26 people would've been smothered with pillows rather than shot.

your insistence that the only available firearms are those acquired legally is amusing.

I guarantee that you could put the word out and buy a gun on the black market within two days. Even in idyllic Portland
 
I think something our Euro bretheren might be missing (due to their continual utterance of "a small minority giving up their rights for the good of all")
Hyperbole much? That statement was made (not continually) with regard to the UK. We are aware there are more gun owners in the US, ta.
 
I seriously think that increased media coverage has had a large affect on the increase in these crimes. Prior to the advent of 24 hr news, when these things occurred it would be mentioned as the TOP STORY at 6 o'clock and would be on the front page of the newspaper. That's pretty much it. Now, however, cameras are on the scene, the shooter is psycholgicaly evaluated by pundits, survivors interviewed, books written...etc The shooters gain posthumous infamy. Troubled kids see this as a way to gain notoriety via getting "even" with those they perceived as wronging them.

I wonder if the increase in school and mass shootings in the USA coincides with the increase in news coverage ?


In short, the media do precisely everything wrongly. This is pointed out every single time, and they continue to present it this way because it's want their audience want, or at least what they think their audience want.
 
your insistence that the only available firearms are those acquired legally is amusing.

I guarantee that you could put the word out and buy a gun on the black market within two days. Even in idyllic Portland

And would there be so many illegal guns available if there weren't so many legal ones to be stolen?
 
your insistence that the only available firearms are those acquired legally is amusing.

I never made that claim. However, the claim that "killers will find a way, even if they can't find a gun" has been made in this very thread, a few times.

I guarantee that you could put the word out and buy a gun on the black market within two days. Even in idyllic Portland

I'm sure you are correct. Would this kid have taken the chance on it though? Would he even know how?
 
Wow, the news media's fact checking is more worthless than ever. Remind me next time I repeat any facts about one of these events for at least the first 24 hours.

So far from TPM the mom was not a teacher at the school. Reporters couldn't find anyone at the school district that knew her and she wasn't on the school employee list.

Earlier they said the dad was dead at the house, then it was the brother, then it was the mother. All the while the brother was listed as the shooter, later that was cleared up.

Now it's claimed that the mom had 5 guns and was a gun enthusiast that took her sons to the gun range on occasion. It could be total BS, who can tell?

How hard can it be for reporters to check out something like the mom working at the school or not?

And while the police said the victim at the house had her face shot off so wasn't identifiable at first, who the heck said it was a male?

The news business model is worthless.
 
And the NRA has zero influence in Congress...:rolleyes:
Congress either votes responsibly or not. No matter how much credit the NRA or any other lobby takes for passing or defeating any certain bill, the buck stops with the names on the voting roll call. Suggesting otherwise is naive.

Ranb
 
And would there be so many illegal guns available if there weren't so many legal ones to be stolen?


If guns were banned, I imagine the black market would explode across our southern border with Mexico, something countries like the UK and Australia (whose residents have been the most vigilant in this thread) don't have to be concerned with. There isn't a enormous criminal cartel operating on their doorstep like the is here.

Organized crime bosses aren't dumb, and as soon as they see a gap to fill they will be bringing guns into the USA along with their drug shipments as fast as they can.
 
One question from a naive European. How come the constitution seems to be so beyond renegotiation? Some folks who've been dead for more than 150 years made a list of things they thought would be good rules to run the country by. I get the impression from across the ocean that they are treated by some as if they were handed to Moses on stone tablets. Is my impression wrong?

The key part is the Second Amendment

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

The Colonies fought the British with a militia made up of volunteer citizens who obviously needed guns to fight off the Red Coats, a standing professional army. The Colonies won with that set up and so enshrined it in the Constitution of the new USA.

Over the centuries that amendment has not been altered, but what is actually means has been debated over and there have been various court decisions as to what it means.

Two cases, The District of Columbia vs Heller in 2008 and McDonald vs Chicago in 2010 firmed up that that specifically means it is the right of every citizen to bear an arm to defend them self.

So it is not set in stone, but after much debate it is clear it is seen as the right of all Americans to bear guns and use them to defend themselves. With such an interest in keeping those relatively recent decisions going, the chances of anything reversing them is frankly nil.

The USA has made its bed and will lie in it.
 
Congress either votes responsibly or not. No matter how much credit the NRA or any other lobby takes for passing or defeating any certain bill, the buck stops with the names on the voting roll call. Suggesting otherwise is naive.

Ranb

and picking and choosing which lobbyists we like is dishonest as hell. That drives me crazy when people say "but but they shouldn't be allowed to do that" but you point out whatever their pet group is and they would never dream of not allowing THEM to lobby congress.
 
I know there can be ammendments. It just seems from way over here like the consititution isn't treated like a document that was written in the 18th Century and may or may not apply today. In some ways it reminds me of the pre-enlightenment veneration of "the ancients". Perhaps that's a convenient bit of posturing to prop up a position (e.g. gun ownership) that people want for other reasons but want to restrict the nature of the debate?
 
Yes, I think so. Although I suppose that if it's only people who are currently taking psychoactive drugs then I'd be fine anyway. And, as I say, if you make this the law, then people with mental issues will be less likely to report their symptoms, meaning that they can still get the guns but will not be treated for their illness. If they are suffering a serious psychosis, then I would agree that they should not be licensed to have a gun, but they will probably then have significant other limits to their freedom anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by mind-altering, anyway.

As in, interrupting or changing the natural function of the person's brain. Though it performs many functions, the brain is a single organ and medicines which affect for instance mood can't not affect other attributes like judgment. We know for a fact that psychiatric drugs affect judgment because they are packaged and promoted with a very straightforward warning that they're capable of causing hallucinations or "suicidal thoughts or tendencies". Since something like 1 percent of actually using a gun is the motor mechanism of pulling the trigger and the remaining 99% is all about judgment, it defies common sense to legally enable people known to be of compromised judgment to possess and carry guns about with them.

I was under the impression that most of these individuals (the mass shooters) who end up having had mental health issues (which is most to nearly all of them) had these issues since minority. This makes it not a problem, since children are taken to their mental health care providers by their parents, not of their own accord; meaning that it's extremely unlikely that a child will be able to prevent himself from receiving treatment because he wants to own a gun someday. Now again it is my impression that most of these mass murderers we've been seeing fall into this category; for instance the individual in the present case did; I believe the theater shooter in Aurora had similarly received behavioral treatment in youth as did the Virginia Tech shooter and the man who attempted to kill Congresswoman Giffords and succeeded in killing many bystanders in that incident (I could be misinformed, I'll freely admit; but these are my understanding of the data at this point). Certainly not all such situations could've been prevented by this kind of measure, but a good many of them easily could have. There's no reason why we have to wait and hold out for "One Measure To Combat Them All" because certainly no such thing can possibly exist.

As for those who developed their mental problems while adults; while I concede that I do think someone choosing not to accept mental health services because he wants to be able to own a gun is pretty much exactly the kind of person who shouldn't be let anywhere near guns, we have to also consider that this is an unquantifiable eventuality; we have no way of actually knowing whether anyone would in fact make such a judgment, or how many such people would. The currently-existing "stigma" on mental illness has not stopped millions from seeking treatment (or being taken to seek treatment by their parents) thus far. To me it seems to be a case of a bunch of people who may possibly have compromised judgment carrying guns versus individuals who can be objectively determined with a reasonable degree of certainty to have compromised judgment (because we know they're taking a substance which compromises judgment).

I have no doubt that some peoples' feelings may be hurt because taking Abilify or Ritalin disqualifies them from owning firearms; but I think that's a pill some of us (myself included, by the way, just for reference) may just have to swallow.
 
Last edited:
Congress either votes responsibly or not. No matter how much credit the NRA or any other lobby takes for passing or defeating any certain bill, the buck stops with the names on the voting roll call. Suggesting otherwise is naive.

Ranb

To suggest that the NRA holds no responsibility for the lax gun laws is naive. I guess in your world, the guy who pays the assassin is innocent, only the assassin is guilty.
 
I think something our Euro bretheren might be missing (due to their continual utterance of "a small minority giving up their rights for the good of all") is that it ISN'T a small minority here. There are an estimated 200+ million legal gun owners in the USA (and god knows how many illegal) it's the majority of the population. Hence any sort of legislation isn't going to be viewed very kindly and legislators sure like getting re-elected....

The latest data is 270 million gun owners in the USA, with 88.8 guns per 100 people, number 1 in the world. Number 2 is Yemen with 54.8 per 100 and the England and Wales has 6.2 per 100.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map
 
If guns were banned, I imagine the black market would explode across our southern border with Mexico, something countries like the UK and Australia (whose residents have been the most vigilant in this thread) don't have to be concerned with. There isn't a enormous criminal cartel operating on their doorstep like the is here.

Organized crime bosses aren't dumb, and as soon as they see a gap to fill they will be bringing guns into the USA along with their drug shipments as fast as they can.

Didn't someone earlier in the thread say that most of the black market guns in Mexico came from the USA in the first place?

Anyway, who do you see as the buyers of all these weapons, if guns were made illegal? Why would it be relevant to the current case? How would a 20 year old know where to buy a gun?
 

Back
Top Bottom