The Julia Gillard is a useless PM thread

[Hallo Alfie]

She doesn't set the wages...

Correct.
And yet she is abusive when others set the wages in other countries.
Hypocrisy much.

 

[bit_pattern]

Hypocrisy much.

Irony much?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

JULIA Gillard's leadership came close to collapse yesterday after cabinet refused to back her policy to vote against a UN resolution tomorrow to give greater recognition to a Palestinian state.

If this were the Libs, some would say they were "tearing themselves apart"

Cabinet sources confirmed the PM was forced into a desperate backdown during caucus yesterday after reported threats that Foreign Minister Bob Carr would vote against her if it was put to a vote on the floor - a precedent which would have forced his resignation.

His tenure would have been very short lived, wouldn't it?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-to-save-her-job/story-e6freuy9-1226525284024

Is that a clock I hear ticking? Time will tell.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

http://afr.com/p/national/mining_crunch_hits_profits_rate_SqNLnM8q4waUqpjM0yAZWL

The Reserve Bank of Australia is on the cusp of returning official interest rates to the emergency lows of the global financial crisis after economic data stoked fears of unemployment above 6 per cent, falling wages and a crunch on mining profits.

If our economy is in such good shape, why are interest rates at emergency lows?

If the mining boom is over, where will the revenue for the massive promises of Gillard come from?

If the Mining tax is so good, how come we get nothing from it?

Worst PM ever!

 

[Hallo Alfie]

As Steyn said, so it is with personal freedoms. When civil liberties are taken away, gradually and bit by bit, few notice what’s happening. During 2012, no less than eight separate pieces of Commonwealth legislation removed the right to silence for individuals accused of committing an offence. The erosion of basic legal rights now passes without comment.

http://afr.com/p/opinion/boiling_frog_of_personal_freedom_OSLb3GrBkKok1IHu6fNkWK

Great article. Gillard is not only useless, she is also dangerous. We are moving slowly but surely closer to a far left country with personal freedoms (such as speech) removed.

The Prime Minister’s misogyny speech was noteworthy because it revealed the sense of grievance the Gillard government wants Australians to experience in all walks of life, not just in politics.

Where no sexism, racism or discrimination is obvious, we’re now actively encouraged to go looking for it, and if we can’t find sexism, racism or discrimination, the government will find it for us.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Funny:
Gillard has been running sexist forums in the lodge an effort to reach the female vote. Sounds like she is getting very, very desperate.

Once again, she would rather divide the nation than unite, showing us all again why she is unfit for the office. She would play the sexism card for all its worth. The polls reflect just how well this is working for her so far - the electorate see right through her.

Can she last until the 2013 election? I doubt it matters, the Labor party has been ruined for perhaps the next decade by her continued and appalling lack of judgement while in office, thus leaving our country the worse for it.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Labor! The team that offered up and promoted their last three leaders:

Latham - who they concede now was too reckless and aggressive (I might add that certainly comes across on some of his SKY programs too). And they knew what he was like before he was promoted!
Rudd who they ... well, do I need to drag up what they said about him earlier this year? With friends like that..... And they knew what he was like before he ascended to the leadership.
And now Gillard - I wonder what they will say of her? Actually I think I know some of the things they will say of her.

With a record like that one wonders who they will turn to to save them now from Gillard's appalling leadership. She has taken Labor from 52:48 when she took over to (now) near oblivion at 46:54 and falling. The coalition must be giddy with delight, Gillard has probably secured the next two or three (maybe four?) governments for them.

2013 politics look as much fun as the past two years. I seriously can't wait.

 

[Krikkiter]

I think the thread title needs to be changed. I suggest "My personal rhetoric: I hate Julia Gillard."

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I think the thread title needs to be changed. I suggest "My personal rhetoric: I hate Julia Gillard."

I don't hate Gillard; I don't even know her. I do think she is an appalling PM though.

I think the thread title is just fine. I also think you could simply address the facts and/or argument rather than try and provoke a fight.

 

[Krikkiter]

Against my better judgment I’ll take you off ignore and give you something to read.

The reasons I referred to this thread as your personal rhetoric based around your hatred of Gillard (though I should have included the ALP, the Greens and anyone else that doesn’t subscribe to your beliefs of how the world should work), are 1. You seem to be the only one posting in this thread. Strange. My personal belief is that that’s because you’re more interested in trolling people into arguments rather than presenting facts. I mean, really, the title of the thread is inherently opinion based. Not the best start is it? 2. You don’t seem to be able to back up the thread title with facts. Well, actually by definition, you can’t.

And here are my facts to back this up:

Every post of yours on this page is opinion. You throw some numbers around in the shape of opinion polls (nothing to do with JG being “useless”) but then make opinionated statements to build on them and bolster your rhetoric. That’s not the way critical thinking works, true?

As an example:

“With a record like that one wonders who they will turn to save them now from Gillard's appalling leadership. She has taken Labor from 52:48 when she took over to (now) near oblivion at 46:54 and falling. The coalition must be giddy with delight, Gillard has probably secured the next two or three (maybe four?) governments for them.”

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with JG’s leadership – useless or not. It’s your interpretation of an opinion poll. And by the by, “giddy with delight” are not the words I’d use to describe the opposition mood at the moment. I hesitate to put that in because at this point that's speculation and opinion. The facts will speak for themselves eventually. Anyway, most of your above, quoted text is opinionated speculation which is wholly unsuitable for this forum and actually discourages and inhibits robust debate.

In the above you refer to JG’s leadership as “appalling.” The facts show otherwise: she has, under a minority government, managed to deal with the LNP, Greens and Independents as well as members of her own party to put through a raft of bills that are, in general, well supported by the Australian community. If she was an “appalling” leader that would not be the case.

You posts link to opinion pieces and trash journalism (ah, yeah, that stuff is based on fact right?) then you once again make opinionated statements based on those in an effort to draw a response. There’s a word for that.

Further, there is absolutely no way you can say in any shape or form that JG is “useless.” That, in itself, is an opinion and could never be backed up by facts. However, to the contrary, JG is and has been, extremely useful. She has, despite the “no” policy (it’s all they really have at this point – you said it yourself in the shape of (paraphrasing): “why would the Coalition release policies early?”), of the LNP, actually put through a vast number of policies.

The last thing I’ll say is that this has all been said by others (very well too!) but you’ve ignored it all. You keep posting by yourself as if JREF is your personal blog. This is the only reason I haven’t asked that the whole thread be trashed. It’s called enough rope.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

The reasons I referred to this thread as your personal rhetoric based around your hatred of Gillard (though I should have included the ALP, the Greens and anyone else that doesn’t subscribe to your beliefs of how the world should work), are 1.

And isn't it nice that someone can challenge the beliefs of the left here with a stiff dose or reality.

You seem to be the only one posting in this thread. Strange.

Others are free to challenge and discuss. What is "strange" is that they don't.

My personal belief is that that’s because you’re more interested in trolling people into arguments rather than presenting facts.

Trolling who, if no one posts here?

I mean, really, the title of the thread is inherently opinion based. Not the best start is it?

I disagree. It is clear, concise and tells the reader exactly what will be discussed. A fine start, I'd have thought.

2. You don’t seem to be able to back up the thread title with facts. Well, actually by definition, you can’t.

'Tis supposed to be a discussion. In the meantime I will still consider myself free to post the facts that will accumulate towards making a fuller case. Others are free to disagree....... or not.

And here are my facts to back this up:

Every post of yours on this page is opinion. You throw some numbers around in the shape of opinion polls (nothing to do with JG being “useless”) but then make opinionated statements to build on them and bolster your rhetoric.

Untrue. There are comments around the reasons why she is not a good PM. There are the scandals and the poor politics, the polls and the bad judgements calls

That’s not the way critical thinking works, true?

That sounds like an opinion.

“With a record like that one wonders who they will turn to save them now from Gillard's appalling leadership. She has taken Labor from 52:48 when she took over to (now) near oblivion at 46:54 and falling. The coalition must be giddy with delight, Gillard has probably secured the next two or three (maybe four?) governments for them.”

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with JG’s leadership – useless or not.

Now you are being ridiculous. It has everything to do with her leadership. She has led Labor from a position of strength to near oblivion.

It’s your interpretation of an opinion poll. And by the by, “giddy with delight” are not the words I’d use to describe the opposition mood at the moment. I hesitate to put that in because at this point that's speculation and opinion. The facts will speak for themselves eventually. Anyway, most of your above, quoted text is opinionated speculation which is wholly unsuitable for this forum and actually discourages and inhibits robust debate.

Got it. Opinions are not welcome in JREF.

Did you actually read what you wrote before posting?

In the above you refer to JG’s leadership as “appalling.” The facts show otherwise: she has, under a minority government, managed to deal with the LNP, Greens and Independents as well as members of her own party to put through a raft of bills that are, in general, well supported by the Australian community. If she was an “appalling” leader that would not be the case.

Hang on, what did you just say about opinions?

You posts link to opinion pieces and trash journalism (ah, yeah, that stuff is based on fact right?) then you once again make opinionated statements based on those in an effort to draw a response.

Not at all. I post relevant pieces that support my assertions.

Further, there is absolutely no way you can say in any shape or form that JG is “useless.”

I agree, she is not completely useless.

The last thing I’ll say is that this has all been said by others (very well too!) but you’ve ignored it all. You keep posting by yourself as if JREF is your personal blog.

Problem?
Is there a rule that says I can't be a lone poster anywhere?

Is it my fault if others don't have sufficient courage to discuss self obvious facts (such as opinion polls) and the many and varied flaws of our current PM.


I have refrained from the temptation of reporting your post. It is largely off topic - and as is so often the case, is directed towards me and not the OP. It is standard fare around here and goes to some of the things I mentioned above (lacking courage etc).

When you care to discuss Gillard in depth and defend or discuss the points I have made I will be ready and willing.

 

[Krikkiter]

And isn't it nice that someone can challenge the beliefs of the left here with a stiff dose or reality.

Reality is based on facts. So far all I've seen is opinion. Furthermore, the title of the thread can only EVER mean that what's posted in this thread on the affirmative side is opinion.

Others are free to challenge and discuss. What is "strange" is that they don't.

How can anyone challenge your personal opinion when you have no facts and can have no facts to back up your erroneous claim that JG is a "useless" PM?

Trolling who, if no one posts here?

"... trolling people into arguments ..." is what I said. The fact that you've missed the meaning of that is, I suppose, convenient.

I disagree. It is clear, concise and tells the reader exactly what will be discussed. A fine start, I'd have thought.

You are saying that JG is "useless" as a PM. How can you possibly say that's concise? Anyway, I've already shown that she is indeed useful and given facts to back that up. You chose to ignore that.

'Tis supposed to be a discussion. In the meantime I will still consider myself free to post the facts that will accumulate towards making a fuller case. Others are free to disagree....... or not.

Where are your facts? Polls saying which political party people would vote for at this point in time? Please tell me how that relates at all to your assertion/opinion that JG is "useless"? Once again, by definition, you can not produce facts that show that JG is a "useless" PM. Care to address that?

Untrue. There are comments around the reasons why she is not a good PM. There are the scandals and the poor politics, the polls and the bad judgements calls

"... why she is not a good PM ..." is quite clearly something different than her being "useless."

That sounds like an opinion.

Do you know what critical thinking entails? Clearly not.

Now you are being ridiculous. It has everything to do with her leadership. She has led Labor from a position of strength to near oblivion.

What does that have to do with whether or not she's useless? It's a POLL. Poll's show opinion, public opinion, and the one you're using shows CURRENT voter opinion regarding POLITICAL PARTIES. Nothing to do with the uselessness or otherwise of the PM.

Got it. Opinions are not welcome in JREF.


Did you actually read what you wrote before posting?

When did I say that opinions aren't welcome at JREF? I said "opinionated speculation." Opinionated speculation without facts is useless when it comes to robust debate. I'm sorry that you didn't understand what I was getting at.

Hang on, what did you just say about opinions?

Are you saying that I'm wrong when I point out that "... she has, under a minority government, managed to deal with the LNP, Greens and Independents as well as members of her own party to put through a raft of bills that are, in general, well supported by the Australian community. If she was an “appalling” leader that would not be the case." That is fact. If you like you can show me that she hasn't dealt with the LNP, Greens and Independents as well as members of her own party to put through a raft of bills that are, in general, supported by the Australian public then do so. I'm not sure why you would avoid doing so.

Not at all. I post relevant pieces that support my assertions.

You post opinion pieces and polls that have nothing to do with whether or not the PM is "useless." Though I admit that the Daily Telegraph did contain some facts, the article you linked to is more about the internal workings of the ALP rather than JG's usefulness or otherwise. In fact, I would say that her ability to negotiate with colleagues shows that she is quite useful as a leader.

I agree, she is not completely useless.

In which case you should change the thread title.

Problem?
Is there a rule that says I can't be a lone poster anywhere?


Is it my fault if others don't have sufficient courage to discuss self obvious facts (such as opinion polls) and the many and varied flaws of our current PM.

There's no need to insult people. I'm sure everyone has their own reasons for not replying to your opinions and off-topic rants.

Discussing the flaws of our current PM's policies is one thing. Trying to assert that the PM is "useless" and pretending that you have facts to back up this ridiculous assertion is quite another.

I have refrained from the temptation of reporting your post. It is largely off topic - and as is so often the case, is directed towards me and not the OP. It is standard fare around here and goes to some of the things I mentioned above (lacking courage etc).

I'm quite clearly attacking your arguments. I've shown, using facts, that 1. the premise of your argument is erroneous and 2. the PM is far from useless. And once again, there's no need to insult people. You wanted a discussion and, against my better judgement I'm giving you one. If you feel the need to report my post then go ahead. I really don't mind. But you'd better have a reason better than: (paraphrasing) "you're gutless."

When you care to discuss Gillard in depth and defend or discuss the points I have made I will be ready and willing.

I did just that. You didn't like it, insulted people then got defensive and tried to say I was attacking you personally. I'm reminded of a certain Ufologist that tried the same thing on me a while back after his arguments were soundly dismantled and shown to be bereft of any factual evidence.

When you can show facts to back up your assertion that JG is a useless PM I'll continue.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I will read the above in full again when I have some moire time and try and figure out what is and isn't off topic and if I will respond to it.

Just two things at this time:
- It might be informative if you reviewed how and why this thread was create (mod instruction). Yes, perhaps the wording is a little imperfect - if colloquialisms, slang or the odd loose word are objectionable to you stiff; I will happily pull you up on yours if you like too if you really want to go down that path.
The thread heading is just fine imo, if you don't get the gist of it that is not my problem.

-Secondly, and more importantly, please pick any one of the individual items I have posted, pull it to bits, throw up counter arguments. opinions (assuming opinions are still ok with you) etc and we can discuss it.

At this stage you seem to wish to discuss generalisations only - let's get specific as to what and why something goes to her being a "useless" PM.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

LOL.
In wanting to shut everyone else up, she would wind up shutting herself up.

Civil Liberties Australia (CLA) warn the PM herself could be in trouble for calling Opposition Leader Tony Abbott a misogynist if proposed amendments to anti-discrimination laws take effect - although Julia Gillard has the protection of Parliamentary privilege

CLA chief executive officer Bill Rowlings has lashed out at the proposed amendments to anti-discrimination laws which make it unlawful to “offend” people.

His attack follows ABC chairman Jim Spigelman’s scathing appraisal this week – he said that the laws could breach our international obligations to freedom of speech.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...er-proposed-laws/story-fndo20i0-1226535227751

Seriously though, this law is both potentially oppressive and undemocratic. Freedom of speech means exactly that and is a cornerstone of democracy.

The screams of "Nazi" or similar would be deafening were (say) a Howard or Abbott to propose this, yet virtual silence from the Gillard sycophants.

 

[Krikkiter]

And back to blogging opinions on opinion pieces with no facts....

 

[Krikkiter]

I will read the above in full again when I have some moire time and try and figure out what is and isn't off topic and if I will respond to it.

When you're ready.

Just two things at this time:
- It might be informative if you reviewed how and why this thread was create (mod instruction). Yes, perhaps the wording is a little imperfect - if colloquialisms, slang or the odd loose word are objectionable to you stiff; I will happily pull you up on yours if you like too if you really want to go down that path.
The thread heading is just fine imo, if you don't get the gist of it that is not my problem.

I get the gist. The title is inflammatory and misleading. What you really want to do is criticise JG's leadership and to do that you use polls, trash journalism and opinion pieces. The only way you can be genuinely critical is if you, using facts, show that she can't deal with people - such as the LNP, The Greens, the Independents and her own party when trying to get bills through parliament. The mark of a competent political leader is that they can do this.

-Secondly, and more importantly, please pick any one of the individual items I have posted, pull it to bits, throw up counter arguments. opinions (assuming opinions are still ok with you) etc and we can discuss it.

I did that. You didn't seem to notice. No discussion for you.

At this stage you seem to wish to discuss generalisations only - let's get specific as to what and why something goes to her being a "useless" PM.

I was specific. You didn't notice. Eyes, meet blinkers. Have fun with your blog.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Have fun with your blog.

Thanks. I take it you are withdrawing. Why am I not surprised?
(I will point out there was not one item I posted that you addressed, in spite of your protestations).

Others have no stomach for discussion either; they would rather discuss me than the OP. I see you are no different.

I am flattered obviously by all this personal attention, but I would honestly rather discuss the fact that Gillard is the worst PM we have ever had than little old me.

 

[Wildy]

What criteria are you using to determine uselessness?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

The local vernacular.

 

[Janadele]

Could be ...

...the fact that Gillard is the worst PM we have ever ...