Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[pakeha]

Yes, there are times when you just have understand what is toxic.

What dose of mercury is toxic? (Are all forms of mercury equally toxic?)

Which forms of mercury accumulate in the human body? To what extent?


What does the toxicity of mercury have to do with autism, by the way? Didn't you read the link I gave upthread pointing out that levels of mercury in children with autism were not significantly different from levels in children developing normally? Or the evidence that showed no link between TCV and autism? There was quite a lot of evidence. If you ignored it all, then perhaps I shouldn't be surprised if you still mistakenly believe that mercury in vaccines has anything to do with autism.

Look, apart from there being no thimerosal in MMR, the absense rather than presense of thimerosal being the cause of the deaths, and when thermosal is used the dose is tiny... is there anything wrong with the case for mercury in the MMR causing autism?

Errr...
The upside is that I for one am learning a lot about the anti-vaxx arguments and what they're worth.

 

[Dcdrac]

Thanks to the anti vaccinne nutters we are facing a potential problem here in the UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/11/whooping-cough-immunisation-warning

 

[ArmillarySphere]

I prefer methylated carbon dihydrogen hydroxide myself. That stuff works a treat against a number of illnesses.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Pffft. Hydrogen hydroxide can corrode solid iron!

Do you have any idea how much of that substance children are exposed too? We bathe their entire tiny bodies in it!

Pluss, how terrible is the explosion risk of having massive weights of hydrogen massed with oxygen over two thirds of the planets surface!

 

[jdc324]

Thanks to the anti vaccinne nutters we are facing a potential problem here in the UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/11/whooping-cough-immunisation-warning

The whooping cough outbreak is complicated by the issues with waning immunity after vaccination but, yeah, the anti-vaccinationists aren't helping. Hopefully the new measures (e.g. offering the vaccine to pregnant women, as per the article) will help to protect the most vulnerable. I wonder what effect the anti-vaccinationists have had on the uptake of the pertussis vaccine among pregnant women (i.e. if it weren't for them, would uptake be significantly higher?). Vaccination rates have been pretty good in children so 44% in pregnant women isn't that great.

 

[Reality Check]

It's mercury. Freaking freaking mercury.

It's not mercury. It is not even freaking, freaking mercury!
It is thiomersal - an organic molecule that has sodium, sulfur and mercury atoms in it. It is really ignorant to think that thiomersal has the same toxicity as pure mercury. It is toxic

Few studies of the toxicity of thiomersal in humans have been performed. Cases have been reported of severe poisoning by accidental exposure or attempted suicide, with some fatalities.[11] Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign.

It is not even mercury when broken down in the body. It is not even freaking, freaking mercury when broken down in the body!
It is ethylmercury - Frequently Asked Questions About Thimerosal (Ethylmercury)

How does thimerosal work in the body?
Thimerosal does not stay in the body a long time so it does not build up and reach harmful levels. When thimerosal enters the body, it breaks down, to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate, which are easily eliminated.

Your "50% mercury by weight concoction" assertion is quite ignorant - the MMR vaccine was never pure thiomersal !

To use your language: I don't give a crap what any anti-vaccine zombie thinks. Any medical community that does not use or has not used a vaccine containing absolutely no mercury that is/was to be injected into any child's arm to prevent children from catching measles, mumps, and rubella is nothing but brain dead insane.
Frequently Asked Questions About Thimerosal (Ethylmercury)

Is thimerosal safe?
Thimerosal has a proven track record of being very safe. Data from many studies show no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines.
Do MMR vaccines contain thimerosal?
No, measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccines do not and never did contain thimerosal. Varicella (chickenpox), inactivated polio (IPV), and pneumococcal conjugate vaccines have also never contained thimerosal.

 

[Reality Check]

How do you think those children died? Infection? I freaking doubt it.

Your 'freaking' ignorance is showing, Clayton Moore .
The children in the 1928 Bundeberg trial did die of infection.
This was a case that showed the need for preservatives in vaccines!
Thimerosal in Vaccines

The United States Code of Federal Regulations (the CFR) requires, in general, the addition of a preservative to multi-dose vials of vaccines; indeed, worldwide, preservatives are routinely added to multi-dose vials of vaccine. Tragic consequences have followed the use of multi-dose vials that did not contain a preservative and have served as the impetus for this requirement. One particularly telling incident from Australia is described by Sir Graham S. Wilson in his classic book, The Hazards of Immunization

In January 1928, in the early stages of an immunization campaign against diphtheria, Dr. Ewing George Thomson, Medical Officer of Health of Bundaberg, began the injection of children with toxin-antitoxin mixture. The material was taken from an India-rubber-capped bottle containing 10 mL of TAM. On the 17th, 20th, 21, and 24th January, Dr. Thomson injected subcutaneously a total of 21 children without ill effect. On the 27th a further 21 children were injected.Of these children .eleven died on the 28th and one on the 29th. (Wilson 1967)​

This disaster was investigated by a Royal Commission and the final sentence in the summary of their findings reads as follows:

The consideration of all possible evidence concerning the deaths at Bundeberg points to the injection of living staphylococci as the cause of the fatalities.​

From this experience, the Royal Commission recommended that biological products in which the growth of a pathogenic organism is possible should not be issued in containers for repeated use unless there is a sufficient concentration of antiseptic (preservative) to inhibit bacterial growth.

 

[Giordano]

Many people here have noticed that Clayton, more and more, appears to be quoting studies and websites that disprove his own arguments. I sometimes wonder if we finally convinced Clayton as to the importance and safety of vaccines and he has embarked on a subtle campaign to discredit the anti-vaxers.

 

[Barber Shop]

Robert Prey thinks that arguments can be refuted by simply saying 'baloney'.

Clayton Moore thinks that arguments can be refuted by simply changing the font size and color of words.

You really can't argue with that approach. (I know you can't because we have been doing so for 76 pages now with no effect...)

 

[Tomblvd]

Chlorine is 60% by weight of salt...anyone adding salt to anything must, consequently, be brain dead insane.

Clayton, this has been pointed out to you previously on this thread.

Why isn't table salt poisonous when it contains a toxic element such as chlorine?

This is a very simple question. Show us you have a clue and answer it.

 

[ehcks]

Clayton, this has been pointed out to you previously on this thread.

Why isn't table salt poisonous when it contains a toxic element such as chlorine?

This is a very simple question. Show us you have a clue and answer it.

You're completely ignoring the sodium. Adding sodium to water causes a reaction so hot the sodium melts, which leads to the water itself burning or even exploding.

And yet sodium chloride is perfectly safe.

I wonder what this could mean for mercury and thiomersal.

 

[Reality Check]

I wonder what this could mean for mercury and thiomersal.

Obviously this means that thiomersal containing vaccines are contraindicated for people with gold fillings since the mercury will react with the gold fillings and they will drop out !

 

[Barber Shop]

Sorry Clayton vaccines do NOT cause autism.

Organic foods cause autism.


http://i.imgur.com/1WZ6h.png



ETA: Thanks Joesixpack for solving that little mystery!

 

[Clayton Moore]

The whooping cough outbreak is complicated by the issues with waning immunity after vaccination but, yeah, the anti-vaccinationists aren't helping. Hopefully the new measures (e.g. offering the vaccine to pregnant women, as per the article) will help to protect the most vulnerable. I wonder what effect the anti-vaccinationists have had on the uptake of the pertussis vaccine among pregnant women (i.e. if it weren't for them, would uptake be significantly higher?). Vaccination rates have been pretty good in children so 44% in pregnant women isn't that great.

The ludicrousness is stunning. No nothing into a pregnant woman's body to protect the unborn baby yet vaccines are okie dokie.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Your 'freaking' ignorance is showing, Clayton Moore .
The children in the 1928 Bundeberg trial did die of infection.
This was a case that showed the need for preservatives in vaccines!
Thimerosal in Vaccines

I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.

 

[TheRedWorm]

The ludicrousness is stunning. No nothing into a pregnant woman's body to protect the unborn baby yet vaccines are okie dokie.

If it protects the baby from diseases, why shouldn't they be?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.

Yes that is clear, which again shows how extremely little you seem to understand about the immune system and infecteous diseases.

 

[Chris Haynes]

The ludicrousness is stunning. No nothing into a pregnant woman's body to protect the unborn baby yet vaccines are okie dokie.

So any chance you'll answer my question? All I am asking for is the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed journal that shows there is a greater risk from the MMR vaccine than there is from actually getting measles. You know the disease that causes pneumonia and encephalitis in lots of cases, as noted in The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review.

Though I think you might tell us how much mercury is in the American version of the MMR vaccine. That would be interesting to know.

You might also tell us which vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. You did post the FDA list, and I noticed half of the influenza vaccines do not have thimerosal. So I was wonder which ones are actually full of the stuff.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

You're completely ignoring the sodium. Adding sodium to water causes a reaction so hot the sodium melts, which leads to the water itself burning or even exploding.

And yet sodium chloride is perfectly safe.

I wonder what this could mean for mercury and thiomersal.

To be fair, mercurycompounds and ions are always toxic.
Of course so is anything if taken to excess, but the thresholds for mercury compounds are low.
But well known and researched, which is why in a vaccine the amounts are calibrated to ensure that any injection will remain well below such a treshold.
And since the halflife of the mercury compound generated by thiomersal is measured in days, the body will purge itself of the mercury over a relatively short time. Provided you don't immediately inject more it is therefore safe.
Of course, replacing it with methods that do not require a toxic compound at all if preferable, which is why most vaccines no longer require the compound.

 

[abaddon]

I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.

My aunt had polio. Never had any relationship, lived all her life without. Rickets and polio meant she never lived above 4'6", and never walked without a stick. To you, this is good.