What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

[Minarvia]

Rose, I'm surprised that you enjoyed reading the bible. I read it, too, many years back. I'm glad for you, I suppose, but as for me, reading it from cover to cover made me sometimes physically sick. The horrors and the tortures and the acts committed in there in I Am's name are many times utterly horrifying and sickening.

Moses is one that sticks in my mind, but there are so many horrible things all over that book that I was troubled for years. I still am, actually.

For me, the small amount of 'beauty' in it cannot come close to overshadowing the utter atrocities and outright genocide.

However, I am reading your posts with interest and I thank you for your honesty. I personally agree with others here, especially Skeptic Ginger, but I truly appreciate the time and effort you are putting into your responses.

 

[RoseMontague]

Ah, nice try. But the difference is, along with failed scientific hypotheses were many many many successful ones.

Not a single god myth has ever turned out to be true.

Are you sure about that? Or is this scientific faith at work?

You said you believe in miracles. That suggests you believe in things that haven't been shown to actually occur.

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

 

[RoseMontague]

Rose, I'm surprised that you enjoyed reading the bible. I read it, too, many years back. I'm glad for you, I suppose, but as for me, reading it from cover to cover made me sometimes physically sick. The horrors and the tortures and the acts committed in there in I Am's name are many times utterly horrifying and sickening.

Moses is one that sticks in my mind, but there are so many horrible things all over that book that I was troubled for years. I still am, actually.

For me, the small amount of 'beauty' in it cannot come close to overshadowing the utter atrocities and outright genocide.

However, I am reading your posts with interest and I thank you for your honesty. I personally agree with others here, especially Skeptic Ginger, but I truly appreciate the time and effort you are putting into your responses.

Yes there are many parts of it that are pretty much NSFR. I view it as both history and literature, with a lot of philosophy thrown in. The KJV version reads almost like poetry to me. The Gospel of John, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Book of Revelation are pretty good ones.

I appreciate your kind comments as well.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Catching up on a few pages here. I love your posts as always, Skeptic Ginger.

Rose Montague
What I'd really like to know is WHY you believe. However, I shall quite understand if you choose not to answer because in the six years or so Ive been posting on various forums, I don't think I've ever read an actual answer to that!

 

[RoseMontague]

As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).

 

[RoseMontague]

Catching up on a few pages here. I love your posts as always, Skeptic Ginger.

Rose Montague
What I'd really like to know is WHY you believe. However, I shall quite understand if you choose not to answer because in the six years or so Ive been posting on various forums, I don't think I've ever read an actual answer to that!

I can't believe that nobody in all these threads in this section has answered this question. Perhaps the answers were just not satisfactory to you?

In any case, I don't mind giving you my feelings on this. First, I sense something more to the universe, something that is not physical. The presence of God is all around us and within us as far as I am concerned. I think that most people that truly believe in God have a similar feeling. Second, it makes more sense to me that there is a creator and a god that does care and interact with Her creation. And third, I have seen miracles in my life and I believe because I have seen it. Some might not consider these things miracles, but I do. Fourth, I have a deep respect for nature and the universe. It is bigger and more awesome than I can imagine. The alternatives of randomness and luck just don't feel right to me. And fifth, I can't imagine death is the end. Here is my banner from my facebook page. Death has another thing coming, imo.

 

[bruto]

What question do you think she can ask that I can't answer?

Because I'm an atheist, not an agnostic. I think people who ask if gods exist ask the wrong question. The question to ask is, what best explains god beliefs? And the answer is, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion, gods are human generated fiction.

The evidence supports my conclusions. Rose has no evidence at all.

How does saying god did it answer that question?

I'm not saying I know, but adding a god layer doesn't add a thing.

That question, obviously, not the one you choose as a later example, but the one you admit to not knowing in the post I was referring to, to which you are now objecting.

I obviously agree that the evidence does not support a god. but I also agree with your at least occasional admission that you do not know all the answers, but that this does not mean we must name a god to provide them gratis.

 

[HansMustermann]

I didn't take the OP as talking about the Christian God. The topic was what do JREF religious believers believe . Religious covers a lot of territory. However, I enjoyed reading the bible and there are concepts in there that I think are sound. I feel the same way about some of the other religions and I love some of the rituals involved in practicing one's religion. I think it is a great way to focus on our spiritual side regardless of what the practical aspects of a religion are. My current beliefs would probably be described as a form of Neopaganism although I still adhere to the one God theory (with different aspects).

As I posted earlier I believe God spoke. The Word was the beginning for the universe. I believe in respect for our creator through forms of worship, ritual, and prayer. I believe in miracles.

Well, I guess I shouldn't have just assumed which god you mean, and I apologize for that, but the same argument holds for any other deity or cosmic intelligence or whatever. We can do the same exercise for Odin, or Azathoth from Lovecraft's myth, or for the FSM or the Ceiling Cat. Or if you prefer goddesses, well, same deal.

Even if I were to grant that there must be something -- or heck, let's even grant there must be someONE -- who caused the big bang. there are a LOT of gaps between 'we don't know where the energy for the Big Bang came from' and, basically, 'I know it was THIS specific deity.' As long as you have any specific deity in mind, or any specific attributes for that deity, the same question applies: how do you know? How do you get from not knowing anything about some cosmic event to knowing that it's a god/goddess/great-spirit/cosmic-intelligence/whatever which specifically likes X and dislikes Y? How do you get from 'he's whatever caused the Big Bang' to, say, 'he's deeply hurt if you're gay' for the Christian God, or for your deity, well, whatever he/she/it likes or dislikes?

All I'm saying is that 'god did it' isn't some general answer that fits everything, as it just introduces more gaps than there were without a god there at all.

 

[HansMustermann]

But ok, you say first there was the Word.

I assume you have some explanation for what that is or how it works. After all, the question is what you believe. So, what does that Word do for a living?

I have a feeling it might be different from the Word that John got from Philo. The Greeks' concept of Logos wasn't "word" as in speech or dictionary words, that was Lexis. The Logos is the root word for Logic, and actually meant more like Reason by the time of John. It was the Reason that basically keeps the world working. It was what kept the sun rising every morning, and the planets moving, and the crops growing and everything. I suppose nowadays we wouldn't be too far in terms of observable effects from that original meaning if we called it Physics. (Though probably far in terms of the woowoo heaped on it.)

Philo also clearly believed that this Logos was also anthropomorphic, and in fact humans were created in the image of the Logos not the Father god. In fact the Philo version of the Logos was a second God entirely. John just took it and put a Logos=Jesus in the equation.

But I find that most people nowadays don't really believe that any more.

So, ok, what does your version of the Word look like?

 

[dafydd]

Are you sure about that? Or is this scientific faith at work?

Yes. Science does not rely on faith. If you are not sure then show us a god myth that is true, and has been proven to be true.

 

[RoseMontague]

But ok, you say first there was the Word.

I assume you have some explanation for what that is or how it works. After all, the question is what you believe. So, what does that Word do for a living?

I have a feeling it might be different from the Word that John got from Philo. The Greeks' concept of Logos wasn't "word" as in speech or dictionary words, that was Lexis. The Logos is the root word for Logic, and actually meant more like Reason by the time of John. It was the Reason that basically keeps the world working. It was what kept the sun rising every morning, and the planets moving, and the crops growing and everything. I suppose nowadays we wouldn't be too far in terms of observable effects from that original meaning if we called it Physics. (Though probably far in terms of the woowoo heaped on it.)

Philo also clearly believed that this Logos was also anthropomorphic, and in fact humans were created in the image of the Logos not the Father god. In fact the Philo version of the Logos was a second God entirely. John just took it and put a Logos=Jesus in the equation.

But I find that most people nowadays don't really believe that any more.

So, ok, what does your version of the Word look like?

It's a beautiful passage but not what I was referring to. I will call it the original word, the prime word God Spoke. Meaning let's get the show on the road.

 

[12AX7]

As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).

How sweet.

I'm an Atheist. This week I have three volunteer duties, two at the homeless shelter, the other at the soup kitchen. Next Saturday is an all-day Habitat For Humanity build.

...interact with Her creation...

Her?

The Bible mentions God as female? Where is this located in Scripture?

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes. Science does not rely on faith. If you are not sure then show us a god myth that is true, and has been proven to be true.

"An honest man, armed with all knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."

My personal opinion and the opinion of many scientists is that it takes faith to believe life is possible without a deity. I think non-believing scientists display a better example of faith than does the believer.

"The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bullseye one millimeter in diameter on the other side."

There is no proof of a creation involving no God, so yes, science is relying on faith when they deny the possibility of God.

"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you sure about that? Or is this scientific faith at work?

It's how overwhelming evidence works.

Are you sure that if you see a new species of dog you know it is a mammal? How many mammals do you need to see before you can assume certain features (hair, warm-blooded, vertebrate and, in the female, milk production) on a newly discovered animal mean you can call it a mammal?

The point is, we draw these kinds of conclusions all the time. No one says, you have to prove the negative before you can say all new species with these features are mammals. We've seen enough mammals to now draw a conclusion about all of them, including the ones we have not yet seen.

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

But you cannot cite one that stands the test of critical analysis, can you? Why does the million dollar challenge go unclaimed?

 

[RoseMontague]

How sweet.

I'm an Atheist. This week I have three volunteer duties, two at the homeless shelter, the other at the soup kitchen. Next Saturday is an all-day Habitat For Humanity build.

Her?

The Bible mentions God as female? Where is this located in Scripture?

I am not sure why everybody just assumes Christian. The concept of God as having both aspects of male and female is a pagan one, primarily Wicca. The creative aspect is female, imo.

You are doing a good thing. I am sure your service to these worthy causes is appreciated.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes there are many parts of it that are pretty much NSFR. I view it as both history and literature, with a lot of philosophy thrown in. The KJV version reads almost like poetry to me. The Gospel of John, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Book of Revelation are pretty good ones..

Yowza!

My most gross out parts are the stories of blaming women for sin, God preferring animal sacrifice in the Cain and Able story, the story of Lot where he prefers throwing his daughters to a mob, his wife is destroyed by God for a minuscule and arbitrary failure and the daughters are then blamed for the father's incest, God "hardens Pharaoh's heart so he can order a slew of first borns killed, God encourages the slaughter of the Amalekites except wants his side to keep virgins for later rape, and on and on and on....

I don't recall any 'favorite' parts in the version I read.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).

Do you know, it is possible to keep and enjoy the rituals while doing away with the mythical belief aspects?

 

[RoseMontague]

Yowza!

My most gross out parts are the stories of blaming women for sin, God preferring animal sacrifice in the Cain and Able story, the story of Lot where he prefers throwing his daughters to a mob, his wife is destroyed by God for a minuscule and arbitrary failure and the daughters are then blamed for the father's incest, God "hardens Pharaoh's heart so he can order a slew of first borns killed, God encourages the slaughter of the Amalekites except wants his side to keep virgins for later rape, and on and on and on....

I don't recall any 'favorite' parts in the version I read.

Let not your heart be troubled SG. You don't have to read it again. I thought the same thing with A Clockwork Orange. There may be something in there of value but I don't see it. Some people think it is classic literature. I think it is trash but maybe it is just me.

 

[RoseMontague]

Do you know, it is possible to keep and enjoy the rituals while doing away with the mythical belief aspects?

Yes, nothing wrong with that, imo. Belief is a matter of choice as is the ritual.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That question, obviously, not the one you choose as a later example, but the one you admit to not knowing in the post I was referring to, to which you are now objecting.

I obviously agree that the evidence does not support a god. but I also agree with your at least occasional admission that you do not know all the answers, but that this does not mean we must name a god to provide them gratis.

Why would you think I believe I know all the answers? You've misread something somewhere.

Perhaps I confused you with this question:

What question do you think she can ask that I can't answer?

I consider, "I don't know", to be an answer.

The point I was making was that filling the knowledge gap with, "god-did-it", is no more of an answer than "I don't know".

What existed before the Big Bang? Gobbledygook and green cheese, obviously. Magic mice got bored and decided to mix the two together and voilá, the Universe and time began.

Are you any further along using that answer than you'd be with, "I don't know"?