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Alex Tsakiris and the Skeptiko Podcast - CRITICAL LOOK AND OVERVIEW.

Arouet said:
I think Miguel understood what I meant. I'll try to be crystal clear: I get that he is frustrated but value his posts, I hope he decides to come back.!
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TBH, I'm not entirely sure if I do understand. In any case, I am pretty sure you don't understand my situation.
I can cool off all I like but that will not change the situation. Clearly, I have been made the official forum punching ball. Do you really expect me to ask for more?
 
Daylightstar said:
Not at all.
You, in your response appeared to obfuscate the banning as a simple frustration followed by an advise to take a break and come back later.

I understand that you, in your role of/as a non-dismissive skeptic posting on Skeptiko fora has to be extremely careful. I also understand that this means you want to be as neutral as possible with respect to Skeptiko when posting here, so as not to offend the Skeptiko-believers.
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I'm not sure where the disconnect is here. I thought the banning was outrageous and immediately posted words to that effect. Unfortunately the post was censored and deleted so I can't prove this. Hopefully this makes my thoughts on this clear!

There are ways to not do this, without negating an actual situation. I'd have to wonder whether they have spooked you into acting this way, or whether you want to further consolidate your role as a non-dismissive skeptic ... in the eyes of the Skeptiko believers.
Doing it the way you did here just doesn't come across as entirely honest.
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When I disagree with someone I usually try to be polite about it, but I can't think of a time I censored myself because I wanted to appeal to the proponents on that forum.

GnaGnaMan said:
TBH, I'm not entirely sure if I do understand. In any case, I am pretty sure you don't understand my situation.
I can cool off all I like but that will not change the situation. Clearly, I have been made the official forum punching ball. Do you really expect me to ask for more?
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I get your situation completely and don't blame you one bit for being pissed. And frankly, if you come back they are still likely to treat you like a punching ball, along with fls and JT, and Paul and frankly anyone else who is familiar with the parapsychology literature but comes to a different conclusion from them.

Despite that, I hope you come back and weather the insults because I think your posts are important and that your voice needs to be heard on that forum. As I stated, I'll also understand if you decide its too frustrating for you and not in your best interest. I'll be disappointed, of course, but I will understand.
 
Arouet said:
I'm not sure where the disconnect is here. I thought the banning was outrageous and immediately posted words to that effect. Unfortunately the post was censored and deleted so I can't prove this. Hopefully this makes my thoughts on this clear!

When I disagree with someone I usually try to be polite about it, but I can't think of a time I censored myself because I wanted to appeal to the proponents on that forum. ...
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It doesn't matter what you did or didn't write over at Skeptiko. What matters here is what you wrote here, in this thread.
You appear to resist engaging the issue raised.

You misrepresented a banning at Skeptiko as a mere frustration followed by the inappropriate advise to take a break and come back later.
  • Misrepresenting a banning situation at Skeptiko
  • Inappropriate advice
Why?

Please be clear on that.
 
Daylightstar said:
It doesn't matter what you did or didn't write over at Skeptiko. What matters here is what you wrote here, in this thread.
You appear to resist engaging the issue raised.

You misrepresented a banning at Skeptiko as a mere frustration followed by the inappropriate advise to take a break and come back later.
  • Misrepresenting a banning situation at Skeptiko
  • Inappropriate advice
Why?

Please be clear on that.
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I'm really not sure what your problem is. It seems that bannings at Skeptico are not permanent, unlike here. I understood Arouet to be simply saying that GnaGnaMan should take his time, and cool off and reconsider what he wants to achieve at the other forum, rather than rushing straight back as soon as the ban was lifted. I don't see him misrepresenting anything.

ETA: Or, more accurately, rushing back as soon as possible to ask for the ban to be lifted, as Paul A. says is an option.
 
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Daylightstar said:
It doesn't matter what you did or didn't write over at Skeptiko. What matters here is what you wrote here, in this thread.
You appear to resist engaging the issue raised.

You misrepresented a banning at Skeptiko as a mere frustration followed by the inappropriate advise to take a break and come back later.
  • Misrepresenting a banning situation at Skeptiko
  • Inappropriate advice
Why?

Please be clear on that.
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Holy moly! Let me be clear - my first post was a brief note of support for Miguel, where I aimed to communicate my appreciation for Miguel's posts, let him know that I sympathized with his frustration (and I say sympathize not empathize because I periodically have my own time as punching bag over there) and expressed my desire that he come back despite the way he had been treated.

I didn't spend a very long time on the post, and don't think I even re-read it before posting. I could have, in retrospect, spent more time on it to ensure that the post exactly represented by own anger and frustration at his banning, and taken care to express my feelings with precision, however I didn't really consider what I was writing to be controversial nor a debate topic and so didn't take that time.

I have aimed in the subsequent posts, after the rather surprising response, to clarify my position. Too be clear I didn't mean to misrepresent the banning, I was simply careless with my words. I also note that Alex's post about inviting Miguel to contact him to rejoin in a few weeks was also deleted which adds a bit of context to where I was coming from - that I didn't see it as a perma-ban but rather a temp ban.

Now, I think I get where you seem to be coming from. You seem to be familiar with my posts on Skeptiko. I don't know if you are a member there with a different username or are simply a lurker. You might not be a fan of my more diplomatic approach of trying to bring the various sides together for civil conversation about these issues rather than simply calling them gullible woo-mongers, and I'm happy to discuss that directly instead of going about it from the back end as we seem to be doing here. If I have misread you I apologise, but otherwise I don't see where this reaction is coming from!
 
Arouet,

I understood exactly what you meant! Can't understand why it's set all of this off however!

Porker.
 
Arouet said:
I get your situation completely and don't blame you one bit for being pissed. And frankly, if you come back they are still likely to treat you like a punching ball, along with fls and JT, and Paul and frankly anyone else who is familiar with the parapsychology literature but comes to a different conclusion from them.

Despite that, I hope you come back and weather the insults because I think your posts are important and that your voice needs to be heard on that forum. As I stated, I'll also understand if you decide its too frustrating for you and not in your best interest. I'll be disappointed, of course, but I will understand.
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Clearly you do not understand.
I can deal with insults. I have dealt with them in the past, right? I dealt with insults this time again, right?
I did not flip and insult anyone back.
Insofar I can see how DLS could see you misrepresenting the situation. The way you put it some people might think there was a reason for the ban.

Also when you talk about Alex "inviting" me back that is very much a euphemism. He unbanned me once after it was requested by a regular poster there, and me. Now, if Alex actually invites me back then I will return. I do not even insist on the apology that I am due.

The heart of the matter is that the ban is not temporary, as some people seem to have misunderstood you. It will last until I contact Alex and ask him to unban me.
I don't mind the insults but I am not going to ask to be insulted. It's something called dignity.

You might not be a fan of my more diplomatic approach of trying to bring the various sides together for civil conversation about these issues rather than simply calling them gullible woo-mongers, and I'm happy to discuss that directly instead of going about it from the back end as we seem to be doing here.
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You're joking, right?
The reason I am no longer particiating in a civil discussion over there is because I was insulted and kicked out. True or false?
 
zooterkin said:
I'm really not sure what your problem is. It seems that bannings at Skeptico are not permanent, unlike here. I understood Arouet to be simply saying that GnaGnaMan should take his time, and cool off and reconsider what he wants to achieve at the other forum, rather than rushing straight back as soon as the ban was lifted. I don't see him misrepresenting anything.

ETA: Or, more accurately, rushing back as soon as possible to ask for the ban to be lifted, as Paul A. says is an option.
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If that's what you understood then Arouet has indeed misrepresented the situation. And quite to my disadvantage.
 
GnaGnaMan said:
Clearly you do not understand.
I can deal with insults. I have dealt with them in the past, right? I dealt with insults this time again, right?
I did not flip and insult anyone back.
Insofar I can see how DLS could see you misrepresenting the situation. The way you put it some people might think there was a reason for the ban.
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I hope I made it clear that I thought your ban was outrageous and unwarranted - I did not mean to give anyone the impression otherwise. Again, I immediately stated so on Skeptiko!

Also when you talk about Alex "inviting" me back that is very much a euphemism. He unbanned me once after it was requested by a regular poster there, and me.
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Yeah, I was one of the regular posters who sent him more than one PM asking you to be unbanned.

Now, if Alex actually invites me back then I will return. I do not even insist on the apology that I am due.

The heart of the matter is that the ban is not temporary, as some people seem to have misunderstood you. It will last until I contact Alex and ask him to unban me.
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I interpreted that as temporary, he added the condition that you ask since he's hoping that you will have too much pride to ask him. Its a completely unreasonable ploy for him to take. That said, from your tone, it appears he ploy has worked.

I don't mind the insults but I am not going to ask to be insulted. It's something called dignity.
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And I understand exactly that. My hope was that you would come back, despite the insults, to make the important points that you have.

You're joking, right?
The reason I am no longer particiating in a civil discussion over there is because I was insulted and kicked out. True or false?
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My comment was geared at Daylightstar, not you, and what I inferred he felt about my tone over there based on the comments he made above.


My intention was to come here to support you and show you my appreciation for your posts. I'm sort of sorry now that I bothered. Just forget it...
 
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Arouet said:
Holy moly! ... If I have misread you I apologise, but otherwise I don't see where this reaction is coming from!
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Well yes, you did misread but no apologies necessary. I am indeed somewhat familiar with your posting style on Skeptiko. I am also familiar with the fairly strong, let's call it anti-skeptic or/and anti-critical thinking sentiments on Skeptiko, which I think guides you in your posting style even if only partially.
(I am not now, nor have I ever been posting on Skeptiko)
It's of course entirely up to you (and in this case up to guidance by Skeptiko) which posting style you choose for posting on Skeptiko, as I understand the necessity for such a style over here.
For most skeptical oriented people it's difficult to remain calm on Skeptiko, that you pull it off gets you kudos.

Also, I do not think that you would intentionally misrepresent a banning on Skeptiko, I do however still think that it came about through aforementioned guidance.

My issue does not relate to how you expressed your feelings but how you expressed the actual circumstances, a discrepancy which can simply comparably be read in the post the banning was raised and your response to it.
If you feel (which I think is the case and you may confirm if you like) that you should have worded your response such that it would be closer to the aparent actual situation, without the need for all kinds of unstated qualifications, that would be perfectly understandable and fine with me.

As far as the banning situation is concerned, it would apparently need to be assumed that it is one way or another. Zooterkin above assumes but doesn't actually know.

Do you? Would it be a good idea to enquire about it, or would that get you into trouble at Skeptiko?
 
deemsta said:
Arouet,

I understood exactly what you meant! Can't understand why it's set all of this off however!

Porker.
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Daylightstar said:
...
As far as the banning situation is concerned, it would apparently need to be assumed that it is one way or another. Zooterkin above assumes but doesn't actually know.

Do you? Would it be a good idea to enquire about it, or would that get you into trouble at Skeptiko?
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How about you?
 
GnaGnaMan said:
I used to post as Miguel on the Skeptiko forums. Yesterday my account got effectively suspended. I can no longer post in any forum on forum.mind-energy.net nor access my PMs. As you may expect, as a skeptic on a believer-run forum I have been "banned" in the past, but so far it was only ever from the skeptiko sub-forum, and not from all the forums on the site. That way I could at least drop some people a note on my absence.
So, I'm posting this here as an FYI for anyone who wants to know.

A few days ago, one of the nastier posters jumped into a thread and insulted me as a "rude SOB" and made some accusations against me. Although there is a policy against insults, Tsakiris has banned me before for reporting threads. So, I ignored that.

The same poster then jumped into an on-going discussion on a different thread and accused me of supporting censorship. I don't mind being called names but slandering me in such a manner is something I do take offense at. So I asked that person to "please not spread lies about me".
As a result I was banned.

Part of me suspects that this was some sort of juvenile, high-school intrigue to have a semi-plausible excuse to get rid of me.

Whatever the case, I think it's time to draw a line under my experience at skeptiko.
I experienced believers as a group, and shockingly often even as individuals, to be nasty and functionally dishonest.

ETA:
The irony of having been censored for good after being accused of supporting censorship is not lost on me.
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I feel your frustration and anger. I was banned also. That same nasty poster accused me of being a troll. I then spoke my mind and told them what I thought of them. Yes, those folks there can be quite unsavory when you challenge their reality.
If you delete all cookies you can at least read the forum posts. Most of the time that just causes me to bang my head against the wall. :)
 
Hadn't heard about these podcasts until yesterday, when I came across an episode from a few years ago in which Richard Wiseman was a guest.

It was rather interesting. And I might have invested some more time in these podcasts if I hadn't noticed that, in an epilogue to that episode, the host appeared to reveal himself as a manipulative, not to mention ill-mannered, dissembler.
.
.
.
 
lane99 said:
Hadn't heard about these podcasts until yesterday, when I came across an episode from a few years ago in which Richard Wiseman was a guest.

It was rather interesting. And I might have invested some more time in these podcasts if I hadn't noticed that, in an epilogue to that episode, the host appeared to reveal himself as a manipulative, not to mention ill-mannered, dissembler.
.
.
.
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In spite of having read your first paragraph, I immediately thought of Tsakiris' extremely (I can't emphesize this enough ...) pathetically sad epilogue to the episodes about Tsakiris' very best psychic detective (Nancy Weber) case with Benjamin Radford.
 
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