Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[pakeha]

Hi, CM.
I think you're on the wrong track here, because "Ethylmercury is one of the metabolites of thiomersal,[1] which is used as a preservative in some vaccines. "

In any case, why discuss a metabolite of thiomersal?
Does it have something to do with a link between vaxx and autism?

 

[Tomtomkent]

No matter what the medical community says putting 8 doses of foreign substances in AN INFANTS TINY BODY is insane. We've gone from the point where we wouldn't think of giving an infant more than 1 vaccine a month to 8 in one session.

Things that require foreign substances entering an infants body, and are therefore insane accrdong to Clayton:

1. Breathing.
2. Breast feeding.
3. Feeding with formula.
4. Allowing the baby to suck its thumb.
5. Bathing.
6. Hugging, kissing or other bodily contacts.
When will we stop this insanity?

 

[Estellea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylmercury

The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied
The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied
The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied

It's not as freaking toxic as methylmercury?
If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 90 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 80 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 70 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 60 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 50 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 40 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.


No matter what the medical community says putting 8 doses of foreign substances in AN INFANTS TINY BODY is insane. We've gone from the point where we wouldn't think of giving an infant more than 1 vaccine a month to 8 in one session.

Clay, I seemed to have missed the part where "heavy metals" are in paediatric vaccines and specifically MMR and MMR-V. You said they were.

Este

 

[catsmate]

Why are they idiots, CM?
Why isn't this a legitimate area of investigation?

Because it doesn't support Clayton's opinions of course.

 

[Mister Earl]

"I suspect these vaccines are harmful to infants. So let's ignore them and make the children potentially lethal to infants."

Solid logic, if your purpose is to cause as much harm as possible.

 

[pakeha]

Speaking of thiomersal, this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8820970&postcount=2 gives a most interesting link with a lively discussion about thiomersal in the comments section.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/12/03/congress-holds-an-anti-vaccination-hearing/

Currently, all pediatric vaccines in the routine infant immunization schedule are manufactured without thimerosal as a preservative. As of January 14, 2003, the final lots of vaccines containing thimerosal as a preservative expired.

And much more.

 

[Estellea]

Speaking of thiomersal, this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8820970&postcount=2 gives a most interesting link with a lively discussion about thiomersal in the comments section.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/12/03/congress-holds-an-anti-vaccination-hearing/

Currently, all pediatric vaccines in the routine infant immunization schedule are manufactured without thimerosal as a preservative. As of January 14, 2003, the final lots of vaccines containing thimerosal as a preservative expired.

And much more.

The reality was however that nearly all stock was gone by 2002 and decreased rapidly upon the FDA recommendation in 1999 as TCVs could be sent back and of course not manufactured. Several other countries stopped using TCVs years before the U.S. and their autism prevalence still increased.

Este

 

[jdc324]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylmercury




The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied
The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied
The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied

It's not as freaking toxic as methylmercury?
If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 90 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 80 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 70 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 60 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 50 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.

If methylmercury is level 100 toxic and ethylmercury is level 40 toxic it's less toxic than methylmercury.


No matter what the medical community says putting 8 doses of foreign substances in AN INFANTS TINY BODY is insane. We've gone from the point where we wouldn't think of giving an infant more than 1 vaccine a month to 8 in one session.

1. The purported link between thimerosal and autism has been investigated. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14519711 "The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders."; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12949291 "Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism."; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15342825 "With the possible exception of tics, there was no evidence that thimerosal exposure via DTP/DT vaccines causes neurodevelopmental disorders."; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15342824 "We could find no convincing evidence that early exposure to thimerosal had any deleterious effect on neurologic or psychological outcome."; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16818529 "The findings ruled out an association between pervasive developmental disorder and either high levels of ethylmercury exposure comparable with those experienced in the United States in the 1990s or 1- or 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccinations."; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14595043 "No consistent significant associations were found between TCVs and neurodevelopmental outcomes."

Here's a report on another study: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-10/uoc--sfm101309.php "researchers at the UC Davis MIND Institute report that after adjusting for a number of factors, typically developing children and children with autism have similar levels of mercury in their blood streams."

2. You seem to be complaining that we don't know enough about the differences between ethylmercury and methylmercury. I wondered if you were implying that we had no idea how much safer ethylmercury was, and thought you might be interested in these: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293416 "the half-lives recalculated after subtracting the background levels from the raw data were 57 ± 18 [in blood] and 64 ± 22 days [in hair]" & http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0073.htm "Currently, five studies report clearance half-times for methylmercury from blood or hair [...] Average mercury half-lives as gleaned from the five publications are 45 to 70 days." Here is a paper that investigated ethylmercury: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245396 "The blood mercury half-life was calculated to be 3.7 days and returned to prevaccination levels by day 30." The estimated half-life of methylmercury in the blood is 10-20 times that of ethylmercury. You poo it out: "Increased mercury levels were detected in stools after vaccination, suggesting that the gastrointestinal tract is involved in ethyl mercury elimination."

3. You write that "We've gone from the point where we wouldn't think of giving an infant more than 1 vaccine a month to 8 in one session." Well, infants actually encounter fewer antigens in vaccines today than they did 40 or 100 years ago. You should know that, Clayton. In fact, I think I might have told you that before on this very thread! http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full

4. You think that "putting 8 doses of foreign substances in AN INFANTS TINY BODY is insane" but reality seems to disagree with you. I don't remember you ever posting any evidence that multiple vaccines overwhelm the immune system. I do remember other people posting evidence showing the opposite. If you want to convince people that you have a point, you need something other than CAPS LOCK and emotional references to the tiny bodies of infants. That something is reliable evidence, my friend.

 

[dafydd]

I do remember other people posting evidence showing the opposite. If you want to convince people that you have a point, you need something other than CAPS LOCK and emotional references to the tiny bodies of infants. That something is reliable evidence, my friend.

Clayton relies on the YooToob Research Institute. Motto: Reliable evidence? Never heard of it.

 

[abaddon]

All good stuff, jdc, but pardon my snippage while I return to you what the anti vax whackos will respond with:

1. The purported link between thimerosal and autism has been investigated. <snip>

All of your links are to EBIL GUBMINT sites, who are wholly owned by BIG PHARMA, and may be dismissed out of hand.

2. You seem to be complaining that we don't know enough about the differences between ethylmercury and methylmercury.

More EBIL GUBMINT sites. It's MERCURY, must be toxic to all. It matters not a whit that elements act differently as compounds (see the table salt example), it's MERCURY.

3. You write that "We've gone from the point where we wouldn't think of giving an infant more than 1 vaccine a month to 8 in one session."

Sure, it is a function of infancy to be exposed to all kinds of toxic, or infectious vectors if one leaves the womb. After all it is a normal part of growing up and developing natural immunity, BUT MERCURY.

4. You think that "putting 8 doses of foreign substances in AN INFANTS TINY BODY is insane" but reality seems to disagree with you.

I reject your reality, and substitute my own. Also, random appeal to emotion: "won't someone think of the children?".

And that's it. Anti vax people will simply put fingers in ears and sing "LaLaLaLa". Likely will not read your good links either. Shame, but I chucked them in my BM file anyway for future use.

 

[pakeha]

Allow me to second the praise for your links.
I've also bookmarked them.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Things that require foreign substances entering an infants body, and are therefore insane accrdong to Clayton:

1. Breathing.
2. Breast feeding.
3. Feeding with formula.
4. Allowing the baby to suck its thumb.
5. Bathing.
6. Hugging, kissing or other bodily contacts.
When will we stop this insanity?

Do any of those actions break the skin and allow foreign substances to enter the infants body through the break of the skin?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clay, I seemed to have missed the part where "heavy metals" are in paediatric vaccines and specifically MMR and MMR-V. You said they were.

Este

I didn't say that one of the chart's header did.

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

 

[Giordano]

Do any of those actions break the skin and allow foreign substances to enter the infants body through the break of the skin?

Did you miss my post where I explained that many of the substances you listed are not actually in vaccines to any extent, and that the ones that are in vaccines are not foreign, but are natural components of your body? Many of them, in fact, are essential to life. Bicarbonate is the key chemical in your blood that carries carbon dioxide to your lungs for exhalation, and also keeps your blood at the right pH. Potassium and sodium phosphates are key to keeping your cells buffered correctly. You can look this up if you think I am lying to you (assuming you care what the truth is).

And in fact truly foreign substances enter children all the time through breaks in their skin, through their nose, eyes, and mouth! I don't think a week passed in which my younger child didn't get a scrape or a scratch when he was little and running around like a demon.

You've said you had children- are you sure?

 

[ehcks]

Do any of those actions break the skin and allow foreign substances to enter the infants body through the break of the skin?

If that's your argument now, does tripping and scraping your knee on the pavement cause autism?

 

[Giordano]

I didn't say that one of the chart's header did.

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

So you are happy to post things that you don't know are true? You don't feel any responsibility for the content of your posts? You don't care if what you quote to support you position is true or not? Worse still, you yourself are willing to believe stuff whether it is true or not?

That explains a lot.

Edited: partial apology. Your cited website is a mass of lies and distortion, but I now realize that you were not quoting one of their many lies, but one of their misleading distortions. Your lack of understanding of chemistry got you into trouble. You were misunderstanding that, despite being under the heading "heavy metals and chemicals," sorbitol is a chemical, not a heavy metal. Everything is, of course, a chemical, but this heading is designed to make anything in a vaccine sound extra scary.

I am providing only a partial apology because you should understand something before posting it. And because I've warned you that anti-vax sites lie and distort. Research things for yourself-don't trust them!

 

[Clayton Moore]

Speaking of thiomersal, this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8820970&postcount=2 gives a most interesting link with a lively discussion about thiomersal in the comments section.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/12/03/congress-holds-an-anti-vaccination-hearing/



And much more.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_timeline.html

The CDC says otherwise.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

Updated lists of vaccines and their thimerosal content can be found in Table 1 (routinely recommended pediatric vaccines) and Table 3 (expanded list of vaccines).

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t1

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t2

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3

 

[Giordano]

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_timeline.html

The CDC says otherwise.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228


http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t1

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t2

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3

What does your post have to do with pakeha's quote?
But to quote pakeha's other recent posts, what does thiomersal have to do with autism?
Finally, if you wre arguing that there still is thiomersal in children's vaccine, you do realize that the FDA websites you cite pretty much say the opposite, that all but a rare few do not contain thiomersal, and the few that do have very low levels.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Do any of those actions break the skin and allow foreign substances to enter the infants body through the break of the skin?

Is that the sound of goalposts being dragged? Do I hear a distant gtroan of anguish as you cry"but... but those dont count!" and desperately look for a reason vaccines alone count as aconcern. No Clay they don't because that is not what you said.

Oh well, oral vaccines (that produce the same immune response) and toddlers eating dirt, playing with their poop and breathing foul air are all okay?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Did you miss my post where I explained that many of the substances you listed are not actually in vaccines to any extent, and that the ones that are in vaccines are not foreign, but are natural components of your body? Many of them, in fact, are essential to life. Bicarbonate is the key chemical in your blood that carries carbon dioxide to your lungs for exhalation, and also keeps your blood at the right pH. Potassium and sodium phosphates are key to keeping your cells buffered correctly. You can look this up if you think I am lying to you (assuming you care what the truth is).

And in fact truly foreign substances enter children all the time through breaks in their skin, through their nose, eyes, and mouth! I don't think a week passed in which my younger child didn't get a scrape or a scratch when he was little and running around like a demon.

You've said you had children- are you sure?

Ahahhahahaha

So the body is ready to accept bicarbonate, potassium and sodium phosphates into the body through the skin and utilize them?

ahahahahha