Request for assistance - a world without electricity

[Myriad]

Well the characters have access to nanotech so building the machine, using very advanced materials, shouldn't be a problem. As long as it operates without electric power.

Hmm. That could eliminate the problems, since with nanotech you could build the machine (in this case, a single-purpose analog mechanical guidance control computer) on a much smaller scale. Not necessarily on a nano scale itself, but maybe the size of (take your pick) a briefcase, pack of cards, or wristwatch. The best way to power it would be a wind-up spring. Really.

There are also concepts out there for nano-scale programmable computers, that would operate by (IIRC) the movement of microscopic sliding rods. In theory these could outperform modern logic chips. Since I suspect it would defeat the purpose of the scenario for the protagonists to be equipped with an arsenal of equipment that is indistinguishable from modern electronics except that it "works by nano," you might want to put some practical limits on the nanotech that is available.

Have you read Sean McMullen's Greatwinter Trilogy? (Souls in the Great Machine et. seq.) If not, you might want to, because some of your players likely will have. It's set in a no-electricity world with developing steam-age-level technology (railways, semaphor communications, etc.), and part of the plot concerns the disruptive effects of introducing an elaborate mechanical computer.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Hellbound]

Would diesel engines work? No spark needed and fuel could be locally processed food oils, although that might strain the local processing capacity.

(derail: this was the first thing that irritated me about the tv show Revolution- where did all the old diesels go? I was willing to let it go until the steam engine showed up. Somehow that put it over the edge for me. Sorry.)

Personally, I have issues witht he idea of something that prevents elctricity from working but doesn't affect any other electromagnetic phenomena, and the idea of a necklace-sized perpetual energy device that induces current in devices never designed to accept induced current (and they do make clear later that it provides power, not that it just removes whatever field is preventing electricity).

It bugs me.

 

[Toke]

You could make a valveless pulse jet engine rather simply, and be able to propel an airship with that.

 

[catsmate]

Old science fiction scenario, look for a book from about 1964 called The Day the Machines Stopped. Since I have not read it since the 1960's I don't recall how they managed by the end to blow up the offending "anti-electricity" machine, but they did, or it's assumed they were about to.

There was also a SF book called Pavane based on a repressive society in which most modern technology was forbidden. Long time since read, but I seem to recall they got around some problems with semaphores and wind powered vehicles and other amusing devices.

Thanks. I have Pavane (and I'll re-read it) but haven't heard of the other one.

Of course some of the ingenious workarounds in the first book may not work if they don't already exist, e.g. steam locomotives and diesel trucks. But if one has a lot of resources and time, a steam engine can get a lot of things done.

Back a few decades ago, Popular Science and the like were hot for fluidics, but I don't know what progress has been made since. As mentioned above, the basic computational gates can be made with hydraulic or pneumatic valves.

Some more research seems to be called for.

Would diesel engines work? No spark needed and fuel could be locally processed food oils, although that might strain the local processing capacity.

I don't see why not, unless I'm missing something. The characters could bring a few such vehicles with them.
Or maybe nuclear powered Stirling cycle engines.

(derail: this was the first thing that irritated me about the tv show Revolution- where did all the old diesels go? I was willing to let it go until the steam engine showed up. Somehow that put it over the edge for me. Sorry.)

I haven't watched Revolution but I've read a few of the S. M. Strling books that seem to have inspired it.

 

[catsmate]

Hmm. That could eliminate the problems, since with nanotech you could build the machine (in this case, a single-purpose analog mechanical guidance control computer) on a much smaller scale. Not necessarily on a nano scale itself, but maybe the size of (take your pick) a briefcase, pack of cards, or wristwatch. The best way to power it would be a wind-up spring. Really
There are also concepts out there for nano-scale programmable computers, that would operate by (IIRC) the movement of microscopic sliding rods. In theory these could outperform modern logic chips. Since I suspect it would defeat the purpose of the scenario for the protagonists to be equipped with an arsenal of equipment that is indistinguishable from modern electronics except that it "works by nano," you might want to put some practical limits on the nanotech that is available.

Yeah, I think limiting it to a few largish dedicated computers is a good idea.

Have you read Sean McMullen's Greatwinter Trilogy? (Souls in the Great Machine et. seq.) If not, you might want to, because some of your players likely will have. It's set in a no-electricity world with developing steam-age-level technology (railways, semaphor communications, etc.), and part of the plot concerns the disruptive effects of introducing an elaborate mechanical computer.

No but I'll have a look at the,. Thanks.

You could make a valveless pulse jet engine rather simply, and be able to propel an airship with that.

That's kind-of cool. Thanks.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Just curious. If electricity doesn't work, what keeps people alive?
I mean, without electricity there would seem to be no electromagnetism, hence no chemistry, or physics really.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Personally, I have issues witht he idea of something that prevents elctricity from working but doesn't affect any other electromagnetic phenomena, and the idea of a necklace-sized perpetual energy device that induces current in devices never designed to accept induced current (and they do make clear later that it provides power, not that it just removes whatever field is preventing electricity).

It bugs me.

Yeah, but that is what makes it science FICTION. I was OK allowing them this one magical object, but letting steam engines run without diesels running just blurs the lines one level too far.

I always think of this when I watch doomsday prepper type programs, too. Why don't they make a greater effort towards sustainable internal combustion power? but then I remember who I am talking about.

Just curious. If electricity doesn't work, what keeps people alive?
I mean, without electricity there would seem to be no electromagnetism, hence no chemistry, or physics really.

Yep, so for someone who has an intuitive grap of those mechanisms this type of fiction falls flat at the start. My intuitive grasp doesn't reach that far so I hung in there a bit longer before the central premise fell apart.

 

[CORed]

Old science fiction scenario, look for a book from about 1964 called The Day the Machines Stopped. Since I have not read it since the 1960's I don't recall how they managed by the end to blow up the offending "anti-electricity" machine, but they did, or it's assumed they were about to.

There was also a SF book called Pavane based on a repressive society in which most modern technology was forbidden. Long time since read, but I seem to recall they got around some problems with semaphores and wind powered vehicles and other amusing devices.

Of course some of the ingenious workarounds in the first book may not work if they don't already exist, e.g. steam locomotives and diesel trucks. But if one has a lot of resources and time, a steam engine can get a lot of things done.

Back a few decades ago, Popular Science and the like were hot for fluidics, but I don't know what progress has been made since. As mentioned above, the basic computational gates can be made with hydraulic or pneumatic valves.

A company I once worked for bottled cleaning products. Some of the filling machines they used were pneumatically controlled and contained pneumatic logic elements: and, or and not gates, and even adjustable timers. The pump that actually filled the bottles was driven by an electric motor, but the motor was controlled by a switch actuated by a small air cylinder. In an electricityless world, the pump could be driven by a belt from a steam or diesel engine with a clutch actuated by an air cylinder. The compressor also would have to be engine driven rather than electric.

Also, automatic transmissions on older cars had quite complex hydraulic control systems. These have been replaced by electronic controls on newer cars.

For motive power, steam, stirling or diesel engines would work. For gasoline engines, you would need to find something non-electric to substitute for spark plugs and ignition system.

 

[Hellbound]

Yeah, but that is what makes it science FICTION.

See, I think science fiction should at least make SOME sort of nod to science, instead of flipping it the finger I guess I have issues when these things are done not for any real story reason, but just because the writers are lazy.

I could by an electricity-dampning field of some sort, with the pendants as a neutralizer. I don't think this would have affected the story at all; small devices affected by the field would be battery powered, vehicles carry their own power, the lighthouse scene could have had a generator start up (actually, I think this did have one, not sure), and so forth. Instead, they hand-wave away.

Anyway, I think I'm off-topic enough

Back on topic, since materials and construction aren't an issue, think compressed air. Pneumatics give you all sorts of capabilities, especially if you can power a compressor via nuclear/steam power. IIRC, one of the ideas for a gun-type space vehicle launch system used compressed air for a softer firing. Course, that's a fairly large construction...but might be something the natives have that can add appropriate complications/twists to the story: maybe the heroes need to get it when they find their initial return vehicle is destroyed, or perhaps the natives built it to launch explosives into space to guard against the aliens that took away their power (assuming any such memory exists in legends or whatever), and mistake the PCs ship for such. Dunno how they'd track it (unless it's large enough for telescopes to see when in orbit), but it's a thought. It'd need a shotgun-style canister projectile to have a chance of hitting anything, though...or time-delayed fragmentation.

ETA: Hydraulics are another option. Heck, a deisel-powered construction vehicle is a possibility, I think. THe only problem I'd see with diesels is starting them. Usually a glow plug is used to warm the fuel initially, and the starter that initially turns teh engine is electric. You'd need non-electric options for both (although a nuclear-thermal process could handle it...pipe heat to replace glow plugs, and a small steam engine for the starter).

 

[Toke]

I have tested emergency generators with hydralic starter, wind-up spring, and a system where a roll of film burns in an external cylinder with the gasses lead into one of the cylinders.
The last was a bit tricky to get working, and the two others require some pumping/winding time.

Normally large diesels use compressed air for starting, small ones can have a relive valve on the cylinder(s) letting you crank it up to speed with a handle without working against the compression.

 

[Horatius]

Specific points.
1. Getting from orbit to the surface
Some sort of simple re-entry vehicle without advanced (electronic or computer controlled) guidance or sensors (no RADAR altimeters). Also limited to chemical rockets (no anti-gravity). Controls would have to be mechanical, pneumatic or hydraulic.
Or maybe they can teleport/transport/transmat down but are then stuck.

If they have access to Trek-level tech prior to landing, could they construct a space elevator? Start at geosynchronous orbit, and drop the cable down to the surface. Use a mechanical system to raise and lower the elevator cars. This solves both landing and taking off, and opens up the risk of the locals trying to hijack it.

3. On-planet communications
Any ideas? No radio so I assume they'll be limited to optical signal (light, flags, heliographs) and shouting.

How about the use of fiber optics? Create some way of rapidly opening and closing a shutter, and you could send Morse code through a fiber. You'd have to figure out how long a signal could travel and still be intelligible, but I'd guess it would be further than line-of-sight. And spools of optical fiber aren't all that large for the length of fiber they hold. There's a calculator here:

http://www.timbercon.com/spools-and-reels-calculator/

For 1.6mm diameter fiber, a spool with a 12 inch traverse, 4 inch barrel, and 16 inch flanges carries 14459 Meters of fiber. Change it to a 250 micron fiber and you get 592250 Meters of fiber. You could carry a lot of spools that size.

This would let you wire several locations in a small area, so you could set up a switchboard type operation, or wire together a few places that are far apart, for long distance communication.

This also opens up potential conflicts as the locals attempt to either cut their lines, or splice into them, to either spy on them, or inject false messages.

 

[bruto]

In the early days of gasoline engines, not all engines used electric ignition. There was "hot tube" ignition, in which a flame heated an element that transmitted heat to the appropriate area and ignited the fuel. For obvious reasons this was not conducive to a carefully timed engine, but it certainly did work. The very first Daimlers used it.

In the early literature of internal combustion engines, there is also a device called the "semi diesel," which injects low grade fuel like a diesel but at lower compression with some aid for ignition such as a hot tube or simply a head temperature hot enough to start spontaneous combustion without a spark. IN this case some of the disadvantages of the hot tube can be overcome, by using it only to start. An engine that starts on gasoline with forced ignition may be able to run later on kerosene or oil with spontaneous combustion. The old John Deere two-banger tractors ran this way, I think, and I once as an experiment rigged a lawn mower with an exhaust heat exchanger powering a hot copper element in the intake manifold and head so that it would run on heated fuel oil after it warmed up. It worked, but I never bothered to rig up a dual fuel system for it.

Rudolf Diesel originally designed his engines to run on vegetable oil, and is said to have dreamed of one day riding across the US in a locomotive propelled by butter. Of course what you can use on an alien planet depends on the vegetation, but Diesel's original design was, I think, for peanut oil, and there are plenty of people now running around in old Mercedes and Jettas burning used fry grease.

If there's any combustible material similar to wood in this world, it is not that hard to design a gas producer that makes combustible gas from the partial combustion of wood or hay or coal. Another old technology from the early days of internal combustion, which enjoyed a considerable revival in Europe during the second world war. Bulky but it works.

Assuming any reasonable level of technology, smithing and the like, one ought to be able to design some kind of power source, from which other machines can be powered, and even if you don't get modern car engines, something like the old one-lung farm power plants should be possible.

 

[rjh01]

Would diesel engines work? No spark needed and fuel could be locally processed food oils, although that might strain the local processing capacity.

(derail: this was the first thing that irritated me about the tv show Revolution- where did all the old diesels go? I was willing to let it go until the steam engine showed up. Somehow that put it over the edge for me. Sorry.)

I have one issue with Diesel engines. How to get them started? You need some sort of engine to do so. Normally this is an electric motor. Alternatives include
- compressed air. I think this is best. Would be a good electricity alternative. Could power cars as well.
- drop a heavy object from a height and extract the energy from that, like an old grandfather clock.
- use a spring, like an old bedside clock.

 

[catsmate]

Just curious. If electricity doesn't work, what keeps people alive?
I mean, without electricity there would seem to be no electromagnetism, hence no chemistry, or physics really.

Basically magic. Or clarketech which is magic with a veneer of science.

A company I once worked for bottled cleaning products. Some of the filling machines they used were pneumatically controlled and contained pneumatic logic elements: and, or and not gates, and even adjustable timers. The pump that actually filled the bottles was driven by an electric motor, but the motor was controlled by a switch actuated by a small air cylinder. In an electricityless world, the pump could be driven by a belt from a steam or diesel engine with a clutch actuated by an air cylinder. The compressor also would have to be engine driven rather than electric.

I've been doing some research and it's fascinating what avenues haven't been explored or developed in the past.

Also, automatic transmissions on older cars had quite complex hydraulic control systems. These have been replaced by electronic controls on newer cars.

For motive power, steam, stirling or diesel engines would work. For gasoline engines, you would need to find something non-electric to substitute for spark plugs and ignition system.

I think the players will have to obtain/manufacture simple, rugged vehicles for use on the planet based on these principles; compression ignition combustion engines or small turbines. I've given them advance warning and they're thinking about various options, including the nuclear powered Stirling engines.

 

[catsmate]

See, I think science fiction should at least make SOME sort of nod to science, instead of flipping it the finger I guess I have issues when these things are done not for any real story reason, but just because the writers are lazy.

I could by an electricity-dampning field of some sort, with the pendants as a neutralizer. I don't think this would have affected the story at all; small devices affected by the field would be battery powered, vehicles carry their own power, the lighthouse scene could have had a generator start up (actually, I think this did have one, not sure), and so forth. Instead, they hand-wave away.

Anyway, I think I'm off-topic enough

It's a plot device. Just ignore it. And it doesn't just stop electricity it also absorbs radio emissions.
I've decided that it's sufficiently selective not to interfere with biological processes, doesn't effect radioactive decay (or fission) or light (so chemical lasers will work).

Back on topic, since materials and construction aren't an issue, think compressed air. Pneumatics give you all sorts of capabilities, especially if you can power a compressor via nuclear/steam power. IIRC, one of the ideas for a gun-type space vehicle launch system used compressed air for a softer firing. Course, that's a fairly large construction...but might be something the natives have that can add appropriate complications/twists to the story: maybe the heroes need to get it when they find their initial return vehicle is destroyed, or perhaps the natives built it to launch explosives into space to guard against the aliens that took away their power (assuming any such memory exists in legends or whatever), and mistake the PCs ship for such. Dunno how they'd track it (unless it's large enough for telescopes to see when in orbit), but it's a thought. It'd need a shotgun-style canister projectile to have a chance of hitting anything, though...or time-delayed fragmentation.

Hmm I like this. I suspect the information the characters (and players) have on the locals may turn out to be a little inaccurate.
Currently I'm not sure whether the planet's inhabitants are the descendents of the people who originally built the device (and the city that houses it) or are the remnants of a colonisation expedition that failed.
Plus there'll be at least two other factions arriving on the planet to investigate/pillage. But no Daleks.

ETA: Hydraulics are another option. Heck, a deisel-powered construction vehicle is a possibility, I think. THe only problem I'd see with diesels is starting them. Usually a glow plug is used to warm the fuel initially, and the starter that initially turns teh engine is electric. You'd need non-electric options for both (although a nuclear-thermal process could handle it...pipe heat to replace glow plugs, and a small steam engine for the starter).

I was thinking something like that or possibly a flywheel powered mechanical system that's rewound by the engine. Plus oil/carbide lamps.

I have tested emergency generators with hydralic starter, wind-up spring, and a system where a roll of film burns in an external cylinder with the gasses lead into one of the cylinders.
The last was a bit tricky to get working, and the two others require some pumping/winding time.

Normally large diesels use compressed air for starting, small ones can have a relive valve on the cylinder(s) letting you crank it up to speed with a handle without working against the compression.

For smaller vehicles that seems like a good system, for something larger (and player paranoia has started ) like a M113 analogue I think a flywheel or other external energy source would be needed.

BTW have you heard of what I think was called the "Mayback system"? Used to start early (twenties) aircraft engines where the prop was too big to spin by hand but electric starter motors weren't powerful enough; it involves a spraying a mixture of aviation fuel and ether into the engine inlets and igniting it with a hand-cranked magneto.
My great-uncle told me about it, he was a pilot back them.

 

[Mojo]

3. Computers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Difference_Engine

 

[Toke]

hand-cranked magneto[/HILITE].
My great-uncle told me about it, he was a pilot back them.

No not really.
I have seen a movie where an aircraft engine were started with a shotgun shell.
Diesels on fishing vessels have used a similar system.

The underlying principle is to turn the engine to the right position and then apply pressure on top of the right cylinder to rev it up.
Shotgun shells, burning film, or compressed air does not make much difference.
Modern large diesels have a distributor that selects the right cylinder to apply start air to. Smaller ones apply the start air to a air driven starter motor.

(Start air is 25-30 bar as opposed to the 6-7 bar of regular work air in a workshop.)
A magneto would not work on your world.

 

[catsmate]

If they have access to Trek-level tech prior to landing, could they construct a space elevator? Start at geosynchronous orbit, and drop the cable down to the surface. Use a mechanical system to raise and lower the elevator cars. This solves both landing and taking off, and opens up the risk of the locals trying to hijack it.

Wow! That would never have occurred to me. It's such a wonderful idea that I'm sorry to have to veto it as it would make resupply a little too easy.
However one of the other groups arriving might utilise it, to enable them to move large forces onto the planet; thus requiring the players to sabotage it. Preferably without causing large chunks to fall on anything important.

How about the use of fiber optics? Create some way of rapidly opening and closing a shutter, and you could send Morse code through a fiber. You'd have to figure out how long a signal could travel and still be intelligible, but I'd guess it would be further than line-of-sight. And spools of optical fiber aren't all that large for the length of fiber they hold. There's a calculator here:

http://www.timbercon.com/spools-and-reels-calculator/

For 1.6mm diameter fiber, a spool with a 12 inch traverse, 4 inch barrel, and 16 inch flanges carries 14459 Meters of fiber. Change it to a 250 micron fiber and you get 592250 Meters of fiber. You could carry a lot of spools that size.

This would let you wire several locations in a small area, so you could set up a switchboard type operation, or wire together a few places that are far apart, for long distance communication.

This also opens up potential conflicts as the locals attempt to either cut their lines, or splice into them, to either spy on them, or inject false messages.

Again, despite working with fibre in the datacomms field that's something that I hadn't thought of. Excellent idea.
Could you directly modulate a light signal mechanically to carry voice over a fibre cable I wonder?

In the early days of gasoline engines, not all engines used electric ignition. There was "hot tube" ignition, in which a flame heated an element that transmitted heat to the appropriate area and ignited the fuel. For obvious reasons this was not conducive to a carefully timed engine, but it certainly did work. The very first Daimlers used it.

In the early literature of internal combustion engines, there is also a device called the "semi diesel," which injects low grade fuel like a diesel but at lower compression with some aid for ignition such as a hot tube or simply a head temperature hot enough to start spontaneous combustion without a spark. IN this case some of the disadvantages of the hot tube can be overcome, by using it only to start. An engine that starts on gasoline with forced ignition may be able to run later on kerosene or oil with spontaneous combustion. The old John Deere two-banger tractors ran this way, I think, and I once as an experiment rigged a lawn mower with an exhaust heat exchanger powering a hot copper element in the intake manifold and head so that it would run on heated fuel oil after it warmed up. It worked, but I never bothered to rig up a dual fuel system for it.

Interesting ideas.

Rudolf Diesel originally designed his engines to run on vegetable oil, and is said to have dreamed of one day riding across the US in a locomotive propelled by butter. Of course what you can use on an alien planet depends on the vegetation, but Diesel's original design was, I think, for peanut oil, and there are plenty of people now running around in old Mercedes and Jettas burning used fry grease.

Yeah, a friend of mine makes his own bio-diesel (and we're considering it also). He's run a voluntary group ambulance on it. There have been experiments with fueling aircraft from peanut oil too.

If there's any combustible material similar to wood in this world, it is not that hard to design a gas producer that makes combustible gas from the partial combustion of wood or hay or coal. Another old technology from the early days of internal combustion, which enjoyed a considerable revival in Europe during the second world war. Bulky but it works.

Assuming any reasonable level of technology, smithing and the like, one ought to be able to design some kind of power source, from which other machines can be powered, and even if you don't get modern car engines, something like the old one-lung farm power plants should be possible.

I'm considering giving the local inhabitants some bio-tech, possibly remnants of the failed colonisation expedition, such as enhanced bacteria/yeast to produce usable fuels.
Or possibly a genmod "bomb bovine" whose mild curd forms a usable explosive...........

I have one issue with Diesel engines. How to get them started? You need some sort of engine to do so. Normally this is an electric motor. Alternatives include
- compressed air. I think this is best. Would be a good electricity alternative. Could power cars as well.
- drop a heavy object from a height and extract the energy from that, like an old grandfather clock.
- use a spring, like an old bedside clock.

All being considered. I'd say using advanced materials and nanotech engineering you could get a *lot* of energy into a flywheel or mechanical system. Likewise containing gases under immense pressure.

 

[catsmate]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Difference_Engine

OK . I tend to think of computers as being electronic. Mechanical/fluidic would work. And will probably be needed.

No not really.
I have seen a movie where an aircraft engine were started with a shotgun shell.
Diesels on fishing vessels have used a similar system.

The underlying principle is to turn the engine to the right position and then apply pressure on top of the right cylinder to rev it up.
Shotgun shells, burning film, or compressed air does not make much difference.
Modern large diesels have a distributor that selects the right cylinder to apply start air to. Smaller ones apply the start air to a air driven starter motor.

(Start air is 25-30 bar as opposed to the 6-7 bar of regular work air in a workshop.)
A magneto would not work on your world.

Nope the magneto wouldn't work, though a match would (or a percussion cap). I just remembered his story of using that system in "the old days".

Several possibilities for starting an engine without electricity. Thanks.

 

[Roboramma]

Hmmmm. Possibly, I'd considered a couple of bits of biotech. However how'd you handle I/O with a biocomputer?

Speech? That's how we do it

Or you could have something similar to a keyboard and a monitor with bioluminescence