iPhone 5

[This is The End]

Apparently it has leaked that someone refused to sign that letter:

Apple iOS software chief Scott Forstall forced out for refusing to sign a letter apologizing for problems with Apple Maps.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204840504578087192497916304.html




http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57542297-37/apples-scott-forstall-ousted-over-maps-apology-wsj/

Today we see even more fallout from the Maps affair:


Apple Fires Maps Manager

Apple continues to clean house after it stumbled badly with its mobile mapping service, firing a manager who oversaw it.

Apple Said to Fire Maps Manager After Flaws Hurt IPhone 5

Apple Inc. (AAPL) has fired the manager responsible for its troubled mapping software, seeking to win back the trust of users disappointed after the program debuted in September, according to people familiar with the move.

Richard Williamson, who oversaw the mapping team, was pushed out by Senior Vice President Eddy Cue, said the people, who asked not to be named because the information wasn’t yet public.

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown, and yet Apple has forced out the head of Apple software and the head of the Maps project. And the reason for both was specifically related to the maps issue.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Today we see even more fallout from the Maps affair:

Apple Fires Maps Manager

Apple Said to Fire Maps Manager After Flaws Hurt IPhone 5

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown, and yet Apple has forced out the head of Apple software and the head of the Maps project. And the reason for both was specifically related to the maps issue.

Who claimed it was overblown and in what regard ?

 

[quadraginta]

Appears to be a conclusion. Is it not a conclusion, but just random information you pulled from the ether ?

I backed up my 'conjecture' with information from the article I originally linked to. You appear to have just pulled things out of thin air.

You're funny. You used the same "air" (interesting way to spell "article") that I did to pull things out of ... the one you linked to.

But according to people familiar with Google’s thinking, the search giant, which had invested massive sums in creating that data and views it as a key feature of Android, wasn’t willing to simply hand it over to a competing platform.

Operative term being "simply".

And if there were terms under which it might have agreed to do so, Apple wasn’t offering them. Sources tell AllThingsD that Google, for example, wanted more say in the iOS maps feature set. It wasn’t happy simply providing back-end data. It asked for in-app branding. Apple declined. It suggested adding Google Latitude. Again, Apple declined. And these became major points of contention between the two companies

Your "conclusion" is just as much a conjecture as mine. The only difference is your apparent need to paint Google as a bad guy.

If you really have evidence that Google refused to let Apple use that feature for no other reason than to maintain a market advantage, and not because Apple was unwilling to meet the price they wanted for their product then go ahead and share it.

Otherwise your "conclusion" is just as full of air.

 

[chulbert]

I didn't have a conclusion. I was responding to TheL8Elvis's conjecture with an alternative suggested by the article he cited.

Of course you did. You said, "They are not the same thing," where they are either Google withholding turn-by-turn or offering it at unacceptable terms.

I simply responded that in principle they can be functionally the same thing.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

One could also say that it is pragmatically the same as Apple wanting it without having to pay for it.

I didn't have a conclusion. I was responding to TheL8Elvis's conjecture with an alternative suggested by the article he cited.

Your 'conjecture' is without basis. There is nothing in the article that suggests apple wanted voice turn-by-turn without having to pay for it.

You're funny. You used the same "air" (interesting way to spell "article") that I did to pull things out of ... the one you linked to.

But according to people familiar with Google’s thinking, the search giant, which had invested massive sums in creating that data and views it as a key feature of Android, wasn’t willing to simply hand it over to a competing platform.

Operative term being "simply".

That statement doesn't say or imply that apple actually asked for google to "simply hand it over".

In fact, the article clearly states there were negotiations:

Sources tell AllThingsD that Google, for example, wanted more say in the iOS maps feature set. It wasn’t happy simply providing back-end data. It asked for in-app branding. Apple declined. It suggested adding Google Latitude. Again, Apple declined

Your "conclusion" is just as much a conjecture as mine. The only difference is your apparent need to paint Google as a bad guy.

Specifically, how did I do paint Google as a bad guy ? When did I say or imply that google wanting to keep a competitive advantage was wrong for them to do ?

If you really have evidence that Google refused to let Apple use that feature for no other reason than to maintain a market advantage, and not because Apple was unwilling to meet the price they wanted for their product then go ahead and share it.

Otherwise your "conclusion" is just as full of air.

I never claimed it was the only reason. But I think the article clearly states that competitive advantage for android was a big reason, if not the main reason google wasn't going to let apple have access to voice-turn-by-turn data for a reasonable price.

And it's not just my conclusion. For example:
http://techpinions.com/the-real-reason-why-apple-dropped-google-maps/10725
http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/26/ap...le-maps-over-lack-of-turn-by-turn-navigation/

If you disagree, that's fine. I just haven't seen you provide any reasons or evidence to believe your conclusion that the problem was apple simply wanted it for free.

I asked earlier, but you ignored the question:
The fact that Apple couldn't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement with Google says nothing about whether either side actually made a reasonable attempt to negotiate a fair deal. And I can't see how it would have been to Googles advantage to offer a 'fair deal'. Do you ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Today we see even more fallout from the Maps affair:

Apple Fires Maps Manager

Apple Said to Fire Maps Manager After Flaws Hurt IPhone 5

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown, and yet Apple has forced out the head of Apple software and the head of the Maps project. And the reason for both was specifically related to the maps issue.

Who made those claims ? How does firing someone prove that the whole maps issue wasn't overblown ?

And the Forstall firing had to do with internal issues other than maps, in case you really thought that Apple maps was the cause of him being fired.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/11/01/paczkowski-mansfield
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...he_company_struggles_to_keep_an_all_star.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-scott-forstall-is-out-2012-10
etc....

 

[This is The End]

Who made those claims ?

First of all there aren't "claims" plural. There is one claim in the post you quote. And here it is:

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown

Now for your question: "Who made that claim?" That is, that the whole maps issue was overblown.

Several people in the thread said it was overblown. Including you:

Information begins to come in about the maps issue ...

<snip>

I suspect ultimately this is a tempest in a teapot, and will not dissuade any discernible number of people from buying an iphone 5.

"Tempest in a teapot" is a direct synonym for "overblown", IOW making a mountain out of a molehill.

Your quote literally reads:

"I suspect that ultimately the maps issue is overblown, and will not dissuade any discernible number of people from buying an iPhone 5."

You just plain don't have any wiggle room there. But I know for a fact that won't stop you from trying....

Ironically you even do it in your very next sentence after asking "Who made that claim"!!:

How does firing someone prove that the whole maps issue wasn't overblown ?

There is no "I'm Just Asking Questions" here at the JREF. We're not going to believe that you are "just curious".

And the Forstall firing had to do with internal issues other than maps, in case you really thought that Apple maps was the cause of him being fired.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/11/01/paczkowski-mansfield
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...he_company_struggles_to_keep_an_all_star.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-scott-forstall-is-out-2012-10
etc....

That's odd because your own links say it was the straw that broke the camels back.

As did the other articles I linked to at the time. Did you even read the articles that I linked to when the story broke? You literally have nothing new here.

He refused to sign the apology letter and was immediately let go. You can't get much more direct than that. No one ever claimed that it wasn't the straw that broke the camels back. What better person to use as a matter to make it look like they are top of the Maps catastrophe?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

First of all there aren't "claims" plural. There is one claim in the post you quote. And here it is:
Now for your question: "Who made that claim?" That is, that the whole maps issue was overblown.

Several people in the thread said it was overblown. Including you:

"Tempest in a teapot" is a direct synonym for "overblown", IOW making a mountain out of a molehill.

Your quote literally reads:

The word literally ... I don't think it means what you think it means. My quote LITERALLY reads:

I suspect ultimately this is a tempest in a teapot, and will not dissuade any discernible number of people from buying an iphone 5.

When you change my words and then claim to be quoting me, that's a bit dishonest, don't you think ?
But back to what you think I said...

"I suspect that ultimately the maps issue is overblown, and will not dissuade any discernible number of people from buying an iPhone 5."

You just plain don't have any wiggle room there. But I know for a fact that won't stop you from trying....

What do I need wiggle room for ? Yes, in regards to affecting sales, as I said, the whole maps fiasco was overblown.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-manager-after-flaws-hurt-iphone-5-debut.html
While flaws in Apple’s map program haven’t dented sales of the iPhone 5, which was introduced in September, the shortcomings were an unusual public misfire that forced Chief Executive Officer Tim Cook to apologize to customers.

Don't you read the articles you post ?

It was overblown. It didn't hurt sales. It was embarrassing for Apple and they took measures to correct it. That doesn't somehow mean the whole issue wasn't overblown, because it clearly was.

Ironically you even do it in your very next sentence after asking "Who made that claim"!!:

There is no "I'm Just Asking Questions" here at the JREF. We're not going to believe that you are "just curious".

That's odd because your own links say it was the straw that broke the camels back.

As did the other articles I linked to at the time. Did you even read the articles that I linked to when the story broke? You literally have nothing new here.

Yes, I read the articles you linked to. I am referring to the statements you made, not the articles.

He refused to sign the apology letter and was immediately let go. You can't get much more direct than that. No one ever claimed that it wasn't the straw that broke the camels back. What better person to use as a matter to make it look like they are top of the Maps catastrophe?

This is what you wrote:

Apple has forced out the head of Apple software and the head of the Maps project. And the the reason for both was specifically related to the maps issue.

The articles I linked to explained why his being fired wasn't related to the maps issue.
But if you want to believe it was maps, that's fine.

 

[This is The End]

When you change my words and then claim to be quoting me, that's a bit dishonest, don't you think ?

That is flat out not true, I would have to change the English language for you to have not said the maps issue was overblown.

Absolutely no one is going to buy into to your claim that me changing "tempest in a teapot" for "overblown" is being dishonest.

Pretty hilarious that the only other thing you can think of is to say you just meant it was "just overblown in relation to it affecting sales". What else would it be in relation to!!

Seriously, tell us what else the maps issue being overblown would have to do with besides the sales of the phone? I can't wait to hear this one.

If the maps issue is not overblown, if it is a real thing, then it would effect sales. You claiming that it is not going to affect sales inherently implies that the maps issue is overblown.

What else would it be in relation to!

The articles I linked to explained why his being fired wasn't related to the maps issue.
But if you want to believe it was maps, that's fine.

That is quite clearly not true. All the links, even back when the story broke said him not signing the apology letter was the straw that broke the camels back. It was the final cause for the effect. You can't get more directly related than that. Him not signing the apology letter, which was 100 percent about the maps issue, is a fact. You just can't dance your way around that.

He was the fall guy for the maps issue. Just because they hated him for other reasons before the maps issue doesn't suddenly change that!

I know we have to do this with you seemingly every time you make a post, but can you just make the claim?

Are you claiming that he was not used as a fall guy over the maps issue?

Stop dancing around and just say it:

"He was not used as a fall guy over the maps issue."

Then we can go on from there.


All you have done is point out what the articles said at the time, that him not signing the apology letter was the straw that broke the camels back, and then they made him the fall guy.

No one is denying that.

 

[This is The End]

I mean c'mon. This is a direct line of quotes. No sneaky anything was done.

I suspect ultimately this is a tempest in a teapot, and will not dissuade any discernible number of people from buying an iphone 5.

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown

Who made those claims ?

What do you think the odds are of you convincing anyone that "the maps issue being overblown and won't affect sales" is different from "the maps issue being overblown in relation to [anything else]."

You're claiming that you think the maps issue was not overblown, but it won't affect sales? If you don't think it will affect sales, then how was it not "overblown"? It just doesn't make any sense.

Are you literally trying to claim that you meant:

"Yes it is a real tempest, not a tempest in a teapot. But as far as affecting sales goes, it is a tempest in a teapot."

Seriously?

 

[This is The End]

Here is another exchange. I left it in full so as not to be accused of doing anything sneaky:

Is 'one' a discernible number of people?

Yes, poor word choice on my part. Literally discernible, yes. Should have said significant.

On seeing the specs for the iPhone 5 I decided to upgrade my 3Gs. Then I heard about the Apple Map problem and changed my mind.

I use Google Maps to find my way around London on a regular basis. Apple's decision to replace something awesome with something broken was a deal killer for me. I doubt I'm the only one.

Broken may be an overstatement. You can also still use the google maps in the browser, and google will be releasing their own app in a few months, or so it is rumored. There are also many other navigation applications.

I can't quite grasp/sympathize the position that apple changing that one app is really so bad as to keep someone from getting a new phone.

In megaresp's highlighted sentence we can clearly see that "something awesome" is referring to Google Maps, and "something broken" is referring to Apple Maps.

No one is going to question that. We don't even need megaresp to back that up.

TheL8Elvis then clearly says: "Broken may be an overstatement."

What did megaresp say was "something broken"?

Apple Maps.

TheL8Elvis's sentence therefore quite clearly reads:

"[Saying Apple Maps is] broken may be an overstatement."

IOW, saying Apple Maps being broken may be an exaggeration. IOW, overblown.

The fact that then you then go on to say that it being broken is an overstatement because we can always just go use Google Maps in the browser just adds to the hilariousness of the damage control.

Using the "other guy" is still directly related, in fact it is part and parcel with, the entire "Apple Maps issue".

IOW, you are saying that mega calling the thing that Apple replaced Google Maps with broken is overstating because we can always use Google Maps in browser form. Which is directly calling the Apple Maps issue overblown.

So far we have you saying that it is overblown in relation to not only it's use, but it's sales.

We have "tempest in a teapot" and "overstatement". You then did the old synonym dance. You are not the first person at the JREF to try and get out from under a claim by doing the old synonym dance. Not by a long shot.

Need we go on?

Also remember, my claim was that posters in this thread claimed the maps issue was overblown. I haven't even started with any other posters' quotes besides yours.

 

[This is The End]

I think I see the pattern here.

Every time an article comes out that is not favorable to apple:

Today we see even more fallout from the Maps affair:

Apple Fires Maps Manager

Apple Said to Fire Maps Manager After Flaws Hurt IPhone 5

or:

The gap widens yet again..

Forget lumping together Android manufacturers as a group, now just a single manufacturer, Samsung, is selling literally twice as many smartphones as Apple.

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/10/26/samsung_ships_two_smartphones_for_every_one_apple/

Interesting how this kind of marketshare news rarely gets mainstream coverage. Then again, i was surprised at how prominent the bad publicity regarding iOS 6 maps was on big news sites like the BBC. I does seem that the media seem less inclined to give Apple a free ride these days.

We start arguing about the minutia, even if it doesn't make any sense, even if it is about the previous news, like the previous firing, and not even about the current news. With hope that the argument veers away from the facts of the news article as much as possible.

So then after keeping up that charade for several posts we hope that no one sees the news.

It's more about creating a blinding distraction, or a fog of argument, than it is about damage control these days.

Apple had a fiasco with the maps.
Heads rolled.

Samsung is the new king of smartphones; currently and for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ferguson]

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown, and yet Apple has forced out the head of Apple software and the head of the Maps project. And the reason for both was specifically related to the maps issue.

That doesn't mean much, per se. Shirley Sherrod and Anthony Wiener both "resigned" after scandals, but I would still consider those scandals overblown.

I haven't had a problem with Apple Maps, but I've only used it around New Orleans and here in Lansing, and the Siri integration has worked well for me, but I've heard enough online to accept that it has problems.

Some of the complaints are empty though, like the "melting bridges," Google Earth has similar problems - probably any map that combines 3d terrain data with 2d images will.

But Apple's phone needed a turn-by-turn gps navigation, google wouldn't allow theirs to be used, so Apple had to make one. Google maps has had a long time to mature, and it shows (and still isn't perfect - probably no map ever will be, there's too much data and it changes too often).

Samsung probably will dominate the smartphone market in terms of units sold, but I don't think that means much to Apple, they were always a niche market, with 5% or so OS marketshare. Their sudden burst of popularity followed by the slow return to normalcy we're seeing now will be interesting for media and analysts, but I don't think will have much impact on their internal culture.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That is flat out not true, I would have to change the English language for you to have not said the maps issue was overblown.

That's not what I said. Read for comprehension, please. You changed my words and said you were literally quoting me. That's dishonest. If you said you were paraphrasing or anything else, it wouldn't be an issue.

Absolutely no one is going to buy into to your claim that me changing "tempest in a teapot" for "overblown" is being dishonest.

Pretty hilarious that the only other thing you can think of is to say you just meant it was "just overblown in relation to it affecting sales". What else would it be in relation to!!

Seriously, tell us what else the maps issue being overblown would have to do with besides the sales of the phone? I can't wait to hear this one.

Since maps has not affected sales, how has it been anything other than overblown ?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-manager-after-flaws-hurt-iphone-5-debut.html
While flaws in Apple’s map program haven’t dented sales of the iPhone 5,

If the maps issue is not overblown, if it is a real thing, then it would effect sales. You claiming that it is not going to affect sales inherently implies that the maps issue is overblown.

What else would it be in relation to!

I don't know. You are the one who said

Odd how some Apple fans in this thread claim that the whole maps issue was overblown, and yet Apple has forced out the head of Apple software and the head of the Maps project.

Seems to me that the whole maps issue was overblown since it didn't affect sales, right ?

That is quite clearly not true. All the links, even back when the story broke said him not signing the apology letter was the straw that broke the camels back. It was the final cause for the effect. You can't get more directly related than that. Him not signing the apology letter, which was 100 percent about the maps issue, is a fact. You just can't dance your way around that.

He was the fall guy for the maps issue. Just because they hated him for other reasons before the maps issue doesn't suddenly change that!

I know we have to do this with you seemingly every time you make a post, but can you just make the claim?

Are you claiming that he was not used as a fall guy over the maps issue?

Stop dancing around and just say it:

"He was not used as a fall guy over the maps issue."

Then we can go on from there.


All you have done is point out what the articles said at the time, that him not signing the apology letter was the straw that broke the camels back, and then they made him the fall guy.

No one is denying that.

He was not used as a fall guy over the maps issue, and you seriously have very little understanding of Apple.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Here is another exchange. I left it in full so as not to be accused of doing anything sneaky:




In megaresp's highlighted sentence we can clearly see that "something awesome" is referring to Google Maps, and "something broken" is referring to Apple Maps.

No one is going to question that. We don't even need megaresp to back that up.

TheL8Elvis then clearly says: "Broken may be an overstatement."

What did megaresp say was "something broken"?

Apple Maps.

TheL8Elvis's sentence therefore quite clearly reads:

"[Saying Apple Maps is] broken may be an overstatement."

IOW, saying Apple Maps being broken may be an exaggeration. IOW, overblown.

The fact that then you then go on to say that it being broken is an overstatement because we can always just go use Google Maps in the browser just adds to the hilariousness of the damage control.

Using the "other guy" is still directly related, in fact it is part and parcel with, the entire "Apple Maps issue".

IOW, you are saying that mega calling the thing that Apple replaced Google Maps with broken is overstating because we can always use Google Maps in browser form. Which is directly calling the Apple Maps issue overblown.

So far we have you saying that it is overblown in relation to not only it's use, but it's sales.

We have "tempest in a teapot" and "overstatement". You then did the old synonym dance. You are not the first person at the JREF to try and get out from under a claim by doing the old synonym dance. Not by a long shot.

Need we go on?

Also remember, my claim was that posters in this thread claimed the maps issue was overblown. I haven't even started with any other posters' quotes besides yours.

Sure, go on, since I don't even know what you are going on about. Yes, the whole maps issue was overblown, it didn't affect sales. Sure, the whole maps issue was overblown because there are workarounds. Sure, the whole maps issue was overblown because Apple will improve maps over time.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

<snio>
Samsung is the new king of smartphones; currently and for the foreseeable future.

Apple has 5% of the global smartphone market and 75% of the profits.
Long live the king.

 

[kajata]

I didn't look too hard among the last couple of pages of posts because the silly bickering is dizzying so don't know if this was posted but looks like Apple retook the U.S. smartphone lead thanks to strong iPhone 5 sales.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/11/27...sales-lead-from-android-on-iphone-5-strength/

 

[This is The End]

We knew they were going to have a huge 12 weeks in the US 12 weeks ago.

This is from post #3 in this very thread:

We are going to be looking at huge iPhone 5 sales numbers.

Sadly that bump will probably be short lived, and they didn't get anywhere close to the worldwide leader. They also had hopes of breaking into Europe, which didn't seem to materialize.

It appears I was also correct about the first part of that post as well:

Almost all of them have been waiting for this day.

So add to that the die-hards that update ASAP every time there is a new version.... We are going to be looking at huge iPhone 5 sales numbers.

From the current source:

http://www.kantarworldpanel.com/Glo...5-sales-in-US-knock-Android-into-second-place

The majority of US iPhone 5 sales, 62%, have come from existing Apple owners upgrading to the new device

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You should apply for the million dollar challenge for correctly 'knowing' that iPhone 5 sales would be huge.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

T-Mobile CEO confirms the iPhone and the death of phone subs

http://gigaom.com/mobile/t-mobile-ceo-confirms-the-iphone-and-the-death-of-phone-subsidies/

T-Mobile USA CEO John Legere confirmed that the iPhone will be among the Apple products that T-Mobile sells next year, but he said that T-Mo will sell it in a far different way than other carriers. T-Mobile is eliminating all device subsidies in 2013, requiring new customers to pay full price for their phones up front, buy it on installment or bring their own unlocked devices, Legere said speaking at corporate parent Deutsche Telekom’s Capital Markets Day in Bonn.

I certainly hope this catches on and costs can truly be lowered in a no-contract bring-your-own-device scenario.