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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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It seems O'Mara wants all of the information on M's phone, not just what he was given.

I can only assume he is after something specifically, but I don't think we can even guess what that would be...


Defense seeks Trayvon Martin phone data


Lawyers say they're trying to obtain information from the phone carried by Florida teenager Treyvon Martin when he was shot by a neighborhood watch volunteer.

<snip>

"It looks like there is other information that I should have," said Mark O'Mara,

<snip>

O'Mara told the Sentinel the investigation by the state has thus far only extracted a portion of the data on the SIM card and SD card of Martin's phone.
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I would note, while the article says this:

The phone's primary chip could be pulled and analyzed, though the state has thus far declined to do so.
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It also says this:

defense attorneys will have to go to court to obtain the personal identification number for the cellphone from Martin's parents in order to extract [details from the phone]
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Let's assume for the moment that the article is correct and they have to get the PIN from the parents and not the state or the detectives. What if the parents literally no longer know it/have it, or they lie and claim that they no longer know it/have it?
 
I've not looked in on this case in ages because it's just been dragging on and on and on, but there is one thing bugging me. Could this be a case of two people using SYG?

I mean, if TM saw GZ was following him (which caused this whole mess IMO) he wouldn't have to run and could turn around to confront him. Thus confronted GZ also had no obligation to leave the situation and it ended up in a scuffle (whether TM attacked GZ and then the gun was pulled or GZ pulled the gun when asked why he was following and TM tried to wrestle it from him or GZ attacked thinking he could take him down without the gun and got overwhelmed I don't know).

I admit I don't know much about this law but is it possible they were both 'standing their ground'?
 
IIRC, (and I very well could be wrong) in the days following the shooting, the parents said to detectives that they did not know the pin for the phone.

I'd like to know what O'Mara is after though. Just seems......odd.
 
DreamingNaiad said:
I've not looked in on this case in ages because it's just been dragging on and on and on, but there is one thing bugging me. Could this be a case of two people using SYG?

I mean, if TM saw GZ was following him (which caused this whole mess IMO) he wouldn't have to run and could turn around to confront him. Thus confronted GZ also had no obligation to leave the situation and it ended up in a scuffle (whether TM attacked GZ and then the gun was pulled or GZ pulled the gun when asked why he was following and TM tried to wrestle it from him or GZ attacked thinking he could take him down without the gun and got overwhelmed I don't know).

I admit I don't know much about this law but is it possible they were both 'standing their ground'?
Click to expand...

No, SYG only applies if one has a rational belief that ones life or limb is in imminent danger or if one is resisting a felony. A person's life is not in imminent danger by a stalker, nor is it a felony to follow someone in a public area.
 
triforcharity said:
IIRC, (and I very well could be wrong) in the days following the shooting, the parents said to detectives that they did not know the pin for the phone.

I'd like to know what O'Mara is after though. Just seems......odd.
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Tracy Martin said he would have to talk to his attorney before giving the police the pin, and then apparently decided it was in his best interest not to cooperate with the police

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...rge-zimmerman-special-prosecutor-angela-corey

Trayvon's father provided ABC with a call log that showed several calls to Trayvon's phone in the minutes leading up to the shooting, something consistent with the girl's account to prosecutors. The last was at 7:12 p.m. Trayvon was shot at 7:16 p.m., according to Seminole County Sheriff's Office records.

The phone is registered to Trayvon's father. According to police records, on March 1, an analyst with the Seminole County Sheriff's Office told Sanford police he needed the security code to unlock the data on the phone.

Sanford police Detective Doris Singleton contacted the carrier, T-Mobile, asking for the code. The company told her they could get to the information if they had the PIN to the account. On March 5, Sanford police Sgt. Joe Santiago asked Tracy Martin for the PIN, according to a police report. Tracy Martin said he'd check with his attorney.

Martin never got back with police. At a March 8 news conference in Orlando, Tracy Martin told reporters he would not help police download information from the phone.
 
DreamingNaiad said:
I've not looked in on this case in ages because it's just been dragging on and on and on, but there is one thing bugging me. Could this be a case of two people using SYG?
Click to expand...


You could never have both parties claiming SYG.

Apart from the fact that being afraid that someone stalking you might be carrying a gun does not qualify while getting into a fight while carrying a concealed gun and believing that the other person might use that gun against you does, the overriding factor is that the deceased doesn't get to make any claims.
 
Newtons Bit said:
No, SYG only applies if one has a rational belief that ones life or limb is in imminent danger or if one is resisting a felony. A person's life is not in imminent danger by a stalker, nor is it a felony to follow someone in a public area.
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And if the stalker/follower has a gun? Would not the one being followed/stalked not fear for his or her life?

Let's see, I'm going to tell my teenage daughter not to worry if she is being stalked or followed. After all, it's not a felony for someone to stalk or follow her around with a gun on their person.
 
Dan O. said:
You could never have both parties claiming SYG.

Apart from the fact that being afraid that someone stalking you might be carrying a gun does not qualify while getting into a fight while carrying a concealed gun and believing that the other person might use that gun against you does, the overriding factor is that the deceased doesn't get to make any claims.
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Indeed, dead people aren't charged with crimes. (You can't put their lives in jeopardy.)

But I think DreamingNaid's question raises a point I made often in the early days of this thread: the SYG law could result in a wholly avoidable death where neither party would have been at fault. In other words, it encourages escalation of minor conflict (or even misunderstanding/misperception) into situations where the use of deadly force is justified.

That's why I think it's extremely bad policy.
 
Now's your chance

Anyone, um, dying to rub shoulders (albeit vicariously since he's still in hiding and will not be available for handshakes and photo, um, shoots) with George Zimmerman can now at least get his autograph.

See here for details: get 'em while they're hot.

They had considered offering commemorative plates with George's face tastefully emblazoned on them, but rejected the idea for fear people would use them for target practice.
.
.
 
el buscador said:
And if the stalker/follower has a gun? Would not the one being followed/stalked not fear for his or her life?
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If it's visible and being brandished, then that's a felony.

Let's see, I'm going to tell my teenage daughter not to worry if she is being stalked or followed. After all, it's not a felony for someone to stalk or follow her around with a gun on their person.
Click to expand...

If you tell your daughter to shoot someone she suspects is stalking or following her, and she follows your advice, she will go to jail.
 
Newtons Bit said:
If you tell your daughter to shoot someone she suspects is stalking or following her, and she follows your advice, she will go to jail.
Click to expand...

Except this seems to have absolutely nothing to do with what el buscador said, or with what happened in Martin's case. There's a big difference between someone coincidentally walking behind a woman, and a guy who drops what he was doing and actively begins chasing a woman. The former is just some guy walking around, the latter has made it clear that he is deliberately targeting the woman for something. And unless the latter makes it clear that he's not being hostile, such as holding out something she dropped and announcing that he is following her to return the item to her, I wouldn't blame her for defending herself. Shooting would be overboard, but I'd laugh if the guy got peppersprayed or kicked in the crotch, and would never vote to convict the woman if I were on a jury.

Same thing in this case. Zimmerman wasn't just some guy walking around when Martin suddenly attacked him. Instead, it was Martin that was just walking around when Zimmerman rolled up on him and started chasing him around, and this was captured on Zimmerman's own police recording.
 
Newtons Bit said:
If it's visible and being brandished, then that's a felony.
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Let's not forget that whole forum of people who think the prosecution has evidence that Z had his gun out at least at one point during the pursuit.

The infamous "partial chamber check" audio during the not911 call.
 
Don West has filed a new motion revealing that Dee Dee, the telephone witness was actually 18-years-old at the time of the shooting and documents the state's refusal to submit a usable copy of Crump's original interview.
 
Cylinder said:
Don West has filed a new motion revealing that Dee Dee, the telephone witness was actually 18-years-old at the time of the shooting and documents the state's refusal to submit a usable copy of Crump's original interview.
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In further news, crump is a complete tool ...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html
This young lady details it completely, the tone of the conversation and the nature of the conversation, and what was happening the last minutes of his life. I will ask you -- her parents does (ph) not in any way want to reveal her identity. She is a minor. Her parents are very worried about her. She is traumatized over this. This was her really, really close personal friend. They were dating.
 
Shellie Zimmerman asks judge to throw out perjury charge

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...lie-zimmerman-perjury-charge-george-zimmerman

November 29, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
An attorney for Shellie Zimmerman today asked a judge to throw out the perjury charge against her, saying that Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, based in Jacksonville, has no jurisdiction in the case.

Not sure I get it. Couldn't BDLR just bring the charge against her if the judge rules Corey was out of her jurisdiction ?
 
TheL8Elvis said:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...lie-zimmerman-perjury-charge-george-zimmerman

November 29, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
An attorney for Shellie Zimmerman today asked a judge to throw out the perjury charge against her, saying that Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, based in Jacksonville, has no jurisdiction in the case.

Not sure I get it. Couldn't BDLR just bring the charge against her if the judge rules Corey was out of her jurisdiction ?
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BDLR is outside his jurisdiction as well. Remember during the hearings he sometimes refers to the common practices in his circuit.
 
The defense team has released the color photo of Zimmerman taken at the scene of the shooting.

In a motion MOM slams BDLR for a Brady violation in witholding the fact that SPD Investigator Erwin was present during the interview in which Tracy Martin denied it was his son's screaming voice in the 911 recording. SPD Captain O'Connor notified the defense of Erwin's claim that he was present and also advised the defense team that O'Connor made BDLR aware of Erwin's statement.
 
Cylinder said:
The defense team has released the color photo of Zimmerman taken at the scene of the shooting.

In a motion MOM slams BDLR for a Brady violation in witholding the fact that SPD Investigator Erwin was present during the interview in which Tracy Martin denied it was his son's screaming voice in the 911 recording. SPD Captain O'Connor notified the defense of Erwin's claim that he was present and also advised the defense team that O'Connor made BDLR aware of Erwin's statement.
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http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf
I played the recordings on my desktop upon playing thc 911 call placed by
<redacted> in which a voIce Is heard In the background yellng for help multiple times, I asked Mr. Martin if the voice calling for help was that of his son. Mr. Martin, clearly emotionally Impacted by the recording, quietly responded "no", This encounter was not audio recorded, and no further questioning in the matter was conducted.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witne...ermans-version/story?id=16371852#.UL4Pu4O9Z8F

The police report states that Trayvon Martin's father told an investigator after listening to 911 tapes that captured a man's voice frantically callling for help that it was not his son calling for help. But Tracy Martin, Trayvon's father, claims that is not true. The Martin family lawyer Ben Crump told ABC News that Tracy Martin initially listened to a distorted version of the 911 calls and said he could not identify the voice.

It seems like Crumps house of cards is starting to fall down.
 
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