General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Mycroft]

My comment says nothing about supporting Hamas.

Since your words are apparently so often misunderstood, can you think of any ways to present your message that will be more clear?

 

[bikerdruid]

Since your words are apparently so often misunderstood, can you think of any ways to present your message that will be more clear?

perhaps if some of the 'israel can do wrong' crowd stopped trying to make 1 = 1 = 3, it would help.

why is it that when we condemn israel for its treatment of palestinians, we automatically are seen to support anything that the palestinians do?

 

[Mycroft]

You could contribute by providing examples to back up your assertion that plenty people posting on these forums say that Israel should never have been founded, or that it doesn't have the right to exist.

Let's start with you.

Do you think Israel should have been founded?

 

[Mycroft]

perhaps if some of the 'israel can do wrong' crowd stopped trying to make 1 = 1 = 3, it would help.

Non sequitur.

why is it that when we condemn israel for its treatment of palestinians, we automatically are seen to support anything that the palestinians do?

Because you say things like this:

when someone is living next door to a bully, should they just keep hiding?

How can that be interpreted as anything other than supporting continued violence from Hamas?

 

[bikerdruid]

Non sequitur.



Because you say things like this:



How can that be interpreted as anything other than supporting continued violence from Hamas?

like i said, "1=1=3" is dumb.

 

[Mycroft]

Maybe. But it wouldn't have been built at all if the Palestinians hadn't been launching suicide bombers at Israel - so I am less troubled by it. (Just as I am les than troubled by Russia slightly reducing the size of Germany post WW2 - these things should serve to deter international assholery).

What's rarely said about the wall is that it's a non-violent response to a violent problem.

 

[Mycroft]

like i said, "1=1=3" is dumb.

So you're unwilling to explain why your post doesn't support Hamas, and yet you're still willing to blame other people for "mistakenly" believing that you and others support Hamas.

You control your message. If other people misunderstand you, it's because you're not making the effort to be understood. As long as you choose to offer apologetics for Hamas and refuse to explain how that's not "support", the inevitable result is people will believe you support Hamas. Your choice.

 

[Mycroft]

Your solution is to have Palestinians not defend themselves against ethnic cleansing. Why do you think this is a desirable solution?

I'll just point out that the last time there was "Ethnic Cleansing" in the Israeli/Arab conflict was when Sharon removed the Jews from Gaza.

I don't remember your protest.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm not sold on the whole "if you bomb a terrorist another two onlookers will become outraged and take his place" concept. Germany and Japan were "broken" in WW2 and they had a profound cultural shift and have played nice ever since.

(Compared to Germany after WW1, where there were conspiracy theories of jewish "stabs in the back" and that they hadn't really been defeated - so they came back for more).

The unspoken assumption is that Arabic people are different. Genetically more prone to violence and revenge.

 

[Mycroft]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

Although the statements against Israel employed by some people like Virus are just hysterical, imbecilic rhetoric, they do reveal a sinister motive. They psychologically need a narrative that allows Israelis the right to kill civilians. That's why they never question war crimes. They believe they've earned the right to commit them.

Bravo!

But to support that you then need to use Orwellian language that redefines what "war-crimes" are. That's why you see JJ cry about "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" where there is none, and why the embargo of Gaza is described as "occupation", "Collective punishment" or "piracy".

 

[Morrigan]

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of moderated content.

[..]
The sneering and logical fallaciousness is flowing thick and strong in the thread tonight!

x 100

 

[bit_pattern]

Israeli tactics haven't changed in decades, poke the cage with a stick until somebody reacts, then play the victim and insist on disproportionate retaliation:

Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land ... and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.
-- Moshe Dayan

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/w...lan.html?scp=1&sq=Moshe Dayan Rami Tal&st=cse

And still the Useful Idiots fall for it every time

 

[PhantomWolf]

Israeli tactics haven't changed in decades, poke the cage with a stick until somebody reacts, then play the victim and insist on disproportionate retaliation:

Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land ... and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.
-- Moshe Dayan

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/w...lan.html?scp=1&sq=Moshe Dayan Rami Tal&st=cse

And still the Useful Idiots fall for it every time

So if Israel does it it's EBIL, but if Hamas does it, that's fine and okay?

 

[bikerdruid]

So if Israel does it it's EBIL, but if Hamas does it, that's fine and okay?

why does everything have to be black and white.
these are complex issues.

that being said, i believe that israel is the problem.
their treatment of palestinians is deplorable.
gaza is a travesty.

 

[John Mekki]

That graphic gets thrown around a lot and it's great propaganda, but it's created through the logical fallacy of changing definitions.

The first picture shows "Jewish land" as only land directly owned by individual Jews or Jewish organizations. By contrast, everything else is labeled "Palestinian land", even public lands and lands owned by distant land-owners.

The second picture incorrectly labels Israeli land as "Jewish land", while ignoring land owned by Jews that would have been in the Arab state and land owned by Arabs that would have been in Israel.

The third picture conflates Jewish and Israeli by using the same colour for Israeli land as previously used for Jewish land, and ignores Arab owned land in the state of Israel.

The fourth picture shows "Palestinian land" as only being the land under control of the Palestinian Authority after the Oslo Accords, Ironically and dishonestly presenting an increase in self-determination and control as a decrease, while dishonestly labeling everything under Israeli military control as "Israeli land", even when there are Palestinian-Arabs living on it.

So you are saying that the Israeli government is not approving settlements outside the 1967 borders?

 

[John Mekki]

Mostly becaue they're doing it the wrong way. Israel wants to get the situation sorted first, come to an agreement about the settlements, where the borders should be, how Israel's security can be gauranteed once it occurs, recognition of Israel in return, and other things that need to be settled. The PA has rufused to do that, and just went to the UN and demanded recognition. I'd note that Hamas also opposes it, as do a lot of other countries who believe that the current situation needs dealing with properly first.

And this may be a way to delay the recognition process indefinitely.
If the two state solution is the right solution, why not just support the Palestinian State at the UN?
Why should Israel wait for being recognized?
They could just recognize Palestine first, go back to their borders and then they would be on the right side.

Do you think that instead one should find no fault even where fault lies, or find fault with everything Israel does even when there is no fault? I thouight you were against that sort of Black and White Us vs Them thinking.

I have never said Palestinians are without guilt

Only if you mean 1867

So Israel is not building settlements outside the 1967 borders

I don't consider this thread a representative sample of "most people."

Unfortunately, looking at how the situation is evolving, it may well be.

 

[John Mekki]

why does everything have to be black and white.
these are complex issues.

that being said, i believe that israel is the problem.
their treatment of palestinians is deplorable.
gaza is a travesty.

I guess Hamas is refusing to recognize Israel.
This is also part of the problem　

 

[bit_pattern]

So if Israel does it it's EBIL, but if Hamas does it, that's fine and okay?

I wish I had a name for this logical fallacy - I'm sure there is one - whatever it is its *********** childish. I'm surprised you didn't add a 'nyah nyah' at the end

Oh, wait, there IS a name for it!

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Strawman

 

[bit_pattern]

why does everything have to be black and white.
these are complex issues.
.

Because its easier than admitting that the last 45 years of Israeli provocation tactics have been laid bare - free of the usual IDF doublespeak that tries to determine the narrative - from a source as exemplary as Moshe Dayan.

 

[trustbutverify]

Those aren't peace signs, it's "V for victory" signs. And it's always a victory when you have dead babies to parade and an Israeli bus blown up.

If necessary, you can display babies killed by your own incompetence and claim they were killed by the Zionists. The important thing is, maximize infant mortality
and dance around for the camera claiming "victory".