General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[trustbutverify]

And than there's the question of why Islamic Jihad started launching so many attacks against Israel after such a long truce.

A strange change in behavior that also could explain why the latest conflict in Gaza started in the first place, why so many rockets have been launched, and why people have died in the latest conflict:

Arab paper: Syria, Iran instigated Gaza conflict


Asharq Alawsat editor claims Syria, Iran caused escalation between Israel, Gaza to aid Assad regime

Careful now. Talk like this hasn't been approved by the I Hate Israel festival.

 

[bigjelmapro]

The settlements are built outside the `67 Israeli borders.
That is, Israel territory expands gradually taking out homes and land from territory where Palestinians live.

Why is this fictional map of 'Palestine' spammed all the time? For thousands of years after it was ancient Israel, this piece of land was under a number of empires. Especially under the Ottoman empire, the last one, personal land ownership was nominal. Even with the British land reforms of the mid 1920's, land sales to mainly Arabs (exclusively as well), predominantly took place around northern Israel and around Judea/Samaria, before the Jordanians named it the West Bank, and looked nothing like 'Palestinian Land' on the map. And the Negev? Who owned land in the Negev? Bedouins didn't.

But spam, spam away....maybe the rest of these fail arguments will be ignored

 

[bit_pattern]

I've already noted what I think of this tactic. Militants engaged in battle, far game, militants at home with family, not fair game.

Link?

ETA - Wrong part if your post quoted, can I please see the source for your timeline?

 

[a_unique_person]

The dumbest argument put forth in this forum "but the Palestinians can't kill many Jews, so Israel should just ignore them".

Seriously wtf? That makes sense to you?

You invented the quote, you invented my meaning. It doesn't make sense to me because this is not what I said.

If you want to look at the Netanyahu tape, however.

Netanyahu: He’s not exactly a lily-white dove, as they say. So my father heard the question and said: “Tell the rabbi that your grandfather, Rabbi Natan Milikowski, was a smart Jew. Tell him it would be better to give two percent than to give a hundred percent. And that’s the choice here. You gave two percent and in that way you stopped the withdrawal. Instead of a hundred percent.” The trick is not to be there and break down. The trick is to be there and pay a minimal price.

This is in reference to the shooting of a settler by Palestinians. He seems to think if the deaths are "minimal", then the price is acceptable. You will note that I quoted the use of the word minimal because that was the word he actually used.

 

[bit_pattern]

maybe the rest of these fail arguments will be ignored

I stopped paying attention to yours and the IÜA Bloc's fail arguments quite some time ago

 

[Ziggurat]

Why is this fictional map of 'Palestine' spammed all the time?

Because some poets think they're qualified to lecture us about politics. And if I ever need advice about cancer treatment, I'll ask the cashier at Walmart.

 

[JihadJane]

 

[a_unique_person]

Why is this fictional map of 'Palestine' spammed all the time? For thousands of years after it was ancient Israel, this piece of land was under a number of empires. Especially under the Ottoman empire, the last one, personal land ownership was nominal. Even with the British land reforms of the mid 1920's, land sales to mainly Arabs (exclusively as well), predominantly took place around northern Israel and around Judea/Samaria, before the Jordanians named it the West Bank, and looked nothing like 'Palestinian Land' on the map. And the Negev? Who owned land in the Negev? Bedouins didn't.

But spam, spam away....maybe the rest of these fail arguments will be ignored

The Australian legal system determined that the idea of a land being not owned by anyone and being empty because there was no formal land ownership system, "Terra Nullius", was wrong, morally and legally. There is legitimate native title for those who lived there.

Apart from that, the Palestinians have international law on their side.

 

[JihadJane]

Ah, I see another one who's head this went clear over. When you're not too busy rolling your eyes, start thinking about what you're saying. What you are saying is the aggressor is determined by the number of deaths. And as pointed out, but you clearly didn't read is the REASON for the disproportion of deaths. The reason the Palestinians have so many more deaths is not because of Israel, it's because of Hamas. Israel warns them and targets only military targets. Hamas intentionally puts them in harms way.

You can't simply look at the death tolls, you have to look at who is responsible for those deaths. Your solution is that Israel should not be able to defend itself against rockets being launched at their civilians. You're claiming that intentionally killing civilian is self defense? What kind of crack must one intake in order to justify such a claim?

If they want to defend themselves, they need only stop launching rockets. It's really that simple. No rockets, no attacks to take out the rockets they hide in civilian populations. Hamas is not defending itself and recklessly firing rockets into civilian populations with the hopes of hitting anything is not defense. Taking out military targets that are the source of attacks IS defense.

Using precession guided weapons and targeting weapons and military personel is a defense. Launching rockets at civilians is not. Maybe you will start to get the picture?

Your solution is to have Palestinians not defend themselves against ethnic cleansing. Why do you think this is a desirable solution?

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The terrorist group that has vowed to wipe Israel off the map, fires countless rockets into their territory, use human shields and refuse to build bunkers for the civilian populace...

So what? Israel has already wiped Palestine off the map with a carefully planned, decades-long, ruthlessly excecuted program of progressive ethnic cleansing. Terorrism (e.g. massacres, wiping out hundreds of villages and forcing the inhabitants to flee into exile) has been integral to this campaign.

Let me stop the discussion for a second to say -- this is something you, bit_torrent, and you, JihadJane (and others of the same cloth) should actually stop and consider.

I don't know if you have me on ignore because you never address anything I say, ...

A few pages back I asked you to name six people saying that Israel should never have been founded, or that it doesn't have the right to exist. You haven’t responded:

There are plenty of people saying that Israel should never have been founded, or that it doesn't have the right to exist -- and plenty of these people post on these forums.

Name six of "these people".

In the spirit of a negotiated sttelement I’ll make it easier for you by asking for six posts instead of six names. It should be easy, as there are “plenty” of them on these forums.

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Israel is a state wether the UN accepts it or not. What do you think the UN gives out state licenses or something? They are like the magic state fairy? Palestine can create a state any time it wants. It wants to UN involved so it can avoid proper negotiations with Israel over the land dispute and try to strong arm that land away from Israel. It's never gonna happen because the UN has no involvement in making countries and has no power to do anything.

"Palestine" no longer has enough land to create a viable state.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I stopped paying attention to yours and the IÜA Bloc's fail arguments quite some time ago

Then why are you (bit_pattern and JJ) here? None of us take you seriously, you don't even try to bring anything meaningful to the discussion, and you serve to strengthen our side in that we repeatedly get to write posts on how wrong you are.

Are you a troll?

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Do not change users' names.

 

[a_unique_person]

Then why are you (bit_pattern and JJ) here? None of us take you seriously, you don't even try to bring anything meaningful to the discussion, and you serve to strengthen our side in that we repeatedly get to write posts on how wrong you are.

Are you a troll?

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited to change username.

You think the pro-Israel side has a lot of meaningful things being said? Much of it amounts to little more than snide references to "I've decided you're an anti-semite, so can I treat you like ****".

 

[JihadJane]

An in-depth analysis of international law in relation to "Operation" "Pillar of Defence":

Debunking Israel’s Justification: Why Pillar of Defence breaches International Law.

Extract:

Al-Jabari as head of the military wing of Hamas must bare responsibility for many of the rockets that have been fired into Israel in recent years yet it is apparent that he was a man who since the Arab Spring recognised the futility of continuing to fire rockets as targets were often missed, as the response was always absolute.

He was, at the point of his assassination, working with Israel’s Gershon Baskin and Egyptian Intelligence on a permanent truce agreement with Israel. The agreement included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in case of a flare-up between factions in the Gaza Strip and gave a clear definition of breaches.

The agreement was perhaps the last opportunity for a long-term resolution of the ongoing conflict. Far from this offensive being an attempt at Peace, the Israeli government assassinated Al-Jabari knowing about this draft Peace agreement, knowing that Al-Jabari was perhaps the only person who could enforce it and yet deciding still to return to conflict.

Recommended reading: 'Useful Enemies: When Waging Wars Is More Important Than Winning Them'

 

[angrysoba]

So? Israel accepted it, Palestine didn't. That's why there's no state of Palestine today.

Yes, I know. I not only didn't say otherwise but actually made that very point. Well done on your emphatic agreement of my point. Of course, it somewhat contradicts poor old johnnyclueless's tirade about how the UN had nothing to do with who gets a state or not and how the Israelis made the state all by themselves.

Yup. People may complain about Israel's right to exist all they want, but really, most other countries' rationale for existing is just that... well, they were better at fighting than the other guys.

Why are Norway and Sweden sovereign states while Lappland isn't? We were stronger than them, and we built cities while they had a nomadic lifestyle, which allowed us to settle and take over their land fairly easily.
Now, that's a great justification.

In fact, I made a point about how Israel has more legitimacy than that given its existence was ratified by the UN. I didn't expect such a hostile tirade earlier about how Israel exists because they bloody well took the place for themselves.

However, while I was somewhat joking about some of the laptop bombadiers here having a Chingis Khan mindset when it comes to war, it doesn't seem far from the truth that some of them also think that when territory is seized in war it automatically becomes conquered territory. As far as I understand most international norms tend to frown on that.

 

[WildCat]

So how many generations must be punished for a decision made over 60 years ago? I think the Bible ascribed seven generations of collective punishment, right?

Have the Palestinians changed their minds about wanting the whole enchilada or nothing? Is that why they voted in Hamas in Gaza, because they wanted peace? Is that why the PA has been unable to find the time to amend their Covenant the last 19 years?

Are those rockets of peace, love, and understanding raining down on Israel from Gaza?

 

[angrysoba]

As much as there is some weird and sometimes quite outrageous claims made by Israel, Right or Wrong supporters, the lunacy probably is bigger on the "Viva Palestina!" side.

How much can you stomach of George Galloway on Iranian TV and a bunch of phone-in morons before you have to switch it off.

 

[WildCat]

You invented the quote, you invented my meaning. It doesn't make sense to me because this is not what I said.

I paraphrased what you said, without changing the meaning. If you think you were misunderstood, please explain the following quote:

There have been numerous rumours here also that Hamas has been smuggling in heavy missiles and weapons. So far, there has not been any evidence of weapons used by them that are causing any real damage to Israel. It is still by far militarily much stronger than the Palestinians.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Military leaders. Most of them store weapons caches in their homes so the only way to destroy those caches is to destroy the home.

Any evidence of this assertion? Usually when Israel targets a weapons depot it calls it a weapons depot, no? In this case, the designated targets are militants' homes, from what I can read, and not any weapons caches.

Israeli IDF go to military bases and store their weapons there away from civilians so if there is a battle, civilians won't get in harms way. Hamas lives, works, and stores their munitions in the civilian population.

The Israeli Ministry of Defense in Tel Aviv is mere blocks from a high school.

In 2012, the IDF announced that they believe that, in the next war, HaKirya could be targeted by enemy GPS-guided missiles, in particular the M-300 missiles installed in Syria. As a result, in the coming years, they will plan to install a missile defense system to protect the area.

So they acknowledge that it could be a target, and aren't moving it out of town...


Furthermore, this article:

http://www.mahal-idf-volunteers.org/information/bakum.htm

Says the following about joining the IDF:

he letter which states your induction date also lists an address in the city where you live (or one close by) where you have to meet. You will be taken by bus to Bakum, a base near Tel-Aviv.

Bakum is the name of the base where all soldiers are processed before being sent out to the various bases or units where they will eventually serve. It is here that you get your shots and uniform, and where you will start to get yelled at by temporary commanders ...

I looked on the Google maps for Bakum, Tel Aviv, and it looks like it's right beside a hospital complex.

Now I don't think the IDF is in any way deliberately placing military targets near residential centres and hospitals to make use of human shields. And, other than one time where Hamas asked people to go onto the roof of a Hamas official's house to avert an Israeli airstrike, I haven't heard much credible evidence of Hamas deliberately using human shields. The fact that they seem to enjoy some considerable support in Gaza belies this fact.

Again, it's the weapons they are after and those are stored in civilian housing or right next to it. The IDF doesn't do that.

Well, here's a quote from an Associated Press article:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — An Israeli missile flattened a two-story house in a residential neighborhood of Gaza City on Sunday, killing at least 11 civilians, mostly women and children, Palestinian medical officials said, as Israel expanded a military offensive to target homes of wanted militants.

The attack, which Israel said targeted a militant, was the single deadliest incident of the five-day-old Israeli operation and hiked a toll Sunday that was already the highest number of civilians killed in one day, according to Gaza medics. The bloodshed is likely to raise international pressure for a cease-fire, with Egypt taking the leading role in mediating between Israel and Hamas.

Nowhere in there does it mention that the intended target was a weapons cache. Do you have an IDF statement that it was? Not that I take what the IDF says at face value, any more than I'd take something Hamas said at face value, but I'm assuming you have some sort of statement that the target was weapons.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

You think the pro-Israel side has a lot of meaningful things being said?

Yes. If you didn't have us all on ignore, you would know.

Edit: if you feel my replies in the thread aren't meaningfull, please, do tell me why. For example, my reply where I detailed what the Geneva Conventions say about the legitimacy of attacking hospitals and houses used as military bases. Since the "pro-Palestinian" side ignored my entire post, as well as most other posts I've made, then please, do tell me how it didn't contribute to the discussion.

Oh, and you still haven't answered my question to those of you who support HAMAS' rights to fire rockets at civilians:

Do you support the right of all people who have lost lands in the 40's or later to "defend their country" with HAMAS' approach? Would you support the Finns if they elected a terrorist organization into power and started firing rockets into towns in Russian-occupied Finnish territories? What if Finnish kids ran in front of Russian tanks throwing rocks at them? What if Finland's government had as its official stance the destruction of Russia? What if the Finnish army refused to wear uniforms and used civilians, including children and bedridden hospital patients and medical staff as human shields?

Should Gandhi have dressed up as a police officer and shot 69 Indian pro-British youths at a political summer camp?

Is terrorism really an acceptable course of action if someone takes land you feel belongs to you?

...or is this only a valid approach when the victims are Israelis?

 

[JihadJane]

Yes. If you didn't have us all on ignore, you would know.

Edit: if you feel my replies in the thread aren't meaningfull, please, do tell me why. For example, my reply where I detailed what the Geneva Conventions say about the legitimacy of attacking hospitals and houses used as military bases. Since the "pro-Palestinian" side ignored my entire post, as well as most other posts I've made, then please, do tell me how it didn't contribute to the discussion.

You could contribute by providing examples to back up your assertion that plenty people posting on these forums say that Israel should never have been founded, or that it doesn't have the right to exist.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Nice dodge attempt, but no cigar. Try again. If you feel my replies in the thread aren't meaningfull, please, do tell me why. For example, my reply where I detailed what the Geneva Conventions say about the legitimacy of attacking hospitals and houses used as military bases. Since the "pro-Palestinian" side ignored my entire post, as well as most other posts I've made, then please, do tell me how it didn't contribute to the discussion.

I also note that my Finland Question has been ignored. Again. Telling.