General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[angrysoba]

israel's continued bombardment of gaza is inhuman.
the israeli death toll (3) has not changed in days, but palestinians continue to die. (100-200)
this is not a reasonable situation.

Biker, it is completely reasonable for Israel to shoot down the Hamas rockets before they kill Israeli civilians and to have air-raid sirens to warn citizens there to head for shelter.

It is unreasonable to demand a parity of deaths if, on the one hand you support Hamas rockets intended to kill, and cry foul if not enough Israelis are killed while Israel is striking back against these rocket attacks.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Biker, if someone shot 2000 missiles into Canada, aiming for residential areas and schools but only killed three people, what would you think the best response would be?

1. Kill three of them

2. Ignore them, afterall only 3 people died despite their best efforts.

3. Try to destroy all of their rocket bases, so that they won't get the chance to hit those schools again when the kids are not on holiday.

4. Something else?

 

[bikerdruid]

Biker, it is completely reasonable for Israel to shoot down the Hamas rockets before they kill Israeli civilians and to have air-raid sirens to warn citizens there to head for shelter.

It is unreasonable to demand a parity of deaths if, on the one hand you support Hamas rockets intended to kill, and cry foul if not enough Israelis are killed while Israel is striking back against these rocket attacks.

i am not arguing against either point.
nor have i said otherwise,

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Biker, if someone shot 2000 missiles into Canada, aiming for residential areas and schools but only killed three people, what would you think the best response would be?

1. Kill three of them

2. Ignore them, afterall only 3 people died despite their best efforts.

3. Try to destroy all of their rocket bases, so that they won't get the chance to hit those schools again when the kids are not on holiday.

4. Something else?

Hey, so honest questions here:

1) What is your evidence that Palestinian rocketeers are deliberately targeting residential areas and schools? The guidance on their weapons seems pretty lacklustre (lots of them fall in fields, from what I understand, and some miss Israel altogether). Do they actually have the wherewithal to target something as specific as a school with one of their rockets?

2) Do you consider Gaza a sovereign state, like Canada? If so, then what should Canada do in response to repeated incursions of hostile forces onto their sovereign territory? Kind of like the same question, but this time Canada is Gaza instead of Israel. In both cases I guess the answer is 'go to war with the means you have available', right? So that doesn't really solve anything, cause we've been here a bunch of times.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

So stupid question, but why are people so mad at a possible one-state solution?

 

[Captain.Sassy]

I remember reading a book by Ed Said when I was younger and thinking that he made a reasonably good case.

 

[Giz]

"Break" Hamas and an even more militant, more enraged resistance will emerge.
[/yt]

I'm not sold on the whole "if you bomb a terrorist another two onlookers will become outraged and take his place" concept. Germany and Japan were "broken" in WW2 and they had a profound cultural shift and have played nice ever since.

(Compared to Germany after WW1, where there were conspiracy theories of jewish "stabs in the back" and that they hadn't really been defeated - so they came back for more).

 

[Captain.Sassy]

/\/\/\
True.

They broke the native american resistance too. I mean, there are flare ups here and there, but nothing too serious.

 

[IDB87]

1) What is your evidence that Palestinian rocketeers are deliberately targeting residential areas and schools? The guidance on their weapons seems pretty lacklustre (lots of them fall in fields, from what I understand, and some miss Israel altogether). Do they actually have the wherewithal to target something as specific as a school with one of their rockets?

The rockets are aimed at the largest concentration of Jews available. If a school is hit, Hamas does not refine their methods to avoid hitting a school in the future.

Or maybe Hamas really doesn't care for open fields, I donno.

Do you consider Gaza a sovereign state, like Canada?

Sure, why not.

If so, then what should Canada do in response to repeated incursions of hostile forces onto their sovereign territory?

Chicken-egg problem. Did the incursions into Canadian territory precede rocket attacks?

Israel withdrew from Gaza 100%. IDF incursions directly result from rocket attacks.

 

[balrog666]

Hey, so honest questions here:

1) What is your evidence that Palestinian rocketeers are deliberately targeting residential areas and schools? The guidance on their weapons seems pretty lacklustre (lots of them fall in fields, from what I understand, and some miss Israel altogether). Do they actually have the wherewithal to target something as specific as a school with one of their rockets?

2) Do you consider Gaza a sovereign state, like Canada? If so, then what should Canada do in response to repeated incursions of hostile forces onto their sovereign territory? Kind of like the same question, but this time Canada is Gaza instead of Israel. In both cases I guess the answer is 'go to war with the means you have available', right? So that doesn't really solve anything, cause we've been here a bunch of times.

Are you suggesting that the "Palestinians" are too stupid to aim their weapons?

 

[applecorped]

Hey, so honest questions here:

1) What is your evidence that Palestinian rocketeers are deliberately targeting residential areas and schools? The guidance on their weapons seems pretty lacklustre (lots of them fall in fields, from what I understand, and some miss Israel altogether). Do they actually have the wherewithal to target something as specific as a school with one of their rockets?

So, they are shooting aimlessly, with no regard to what, or who, they hit?


Sweet.

 

[Giz]

So stupid question, but why are people so mad at a possible one-state solution?

Because it means that due to demographics, Israel will disappear. And a single, rabidly anti-Semitic state will preside over the ruins.

Asking Israelis to vote for a single state solution is to ask them to vote for pogroms, persecutions and/or exile (if their lucky; genocide if their unlucky). That is a platform singularly unlikely to win many Israeli votes...

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Also, Israel targeting Hamas - linked media outlets...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...strikes-kill-palestinian-journalists/1718177/

... are Israeli journalists working for the Israel Broadcasting Authority legitimate targets?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hey, so honest questions here:

1) What is your evidence that Palestinian rocketeers are deliberately targeting residential areas and schools? The guidance on their weapons seems pretty lacklustre (lots of them fall in fields, from what I understand, and some miss Israel altogether). Do they actually have the wherewithal to target something as specific as a school with one of their rockets?

As specific as a single building? Maybe not. As specific as a residential area with a school in it? Yes, generally speaking.

Considering these people advocate killing Jewish children and have when able deliberately gunned down the children of Israelis then it would come as no surprise if they were aiming to hit the schools and often were accurate. Just because you don't have smart bombs doesn't mean you can't aim for and hit a single building.

If you fire 2000 rockets with poor guidance systems it isn't surprising some of them miss completely. It also isn't surprising that some of them land bang on target.

Even if they aren't firing specifically at schools, they sure are firing specifically at civilians, particularly in areas that have schools.

2) Do you consider Gaza a sovereign state, like Canada?

Not exactly but for the sake of argument, sure.

If so, then what should Canada do in response to repeated incursions of hostile forces onto their sovereign territory?

That depends was the hostile force entering their territory in response to having their civilian centres targeted by rocket and mortar attacks?

Kind of like the same question, but this time Canada is Gaza instead of Israel. In both cases I guess the answer is 'go to war with the means you have available', right? So that doesn't really solve anything, cause we've been here a bunch of times.

Actually, my answer isn't. If Canada is being attacked as a retaliation for it's own attacks into the neighbouring state (the USA presumably) then it isn't a blameless victim any more than the Palestinian militants are.

 

[IDB87]

Also, Israel targeting Hamas - linked media outlets...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...strikes-kill-palestinian-journalists/1718177/

... are Israeli journalists working for the Israel Broadcasting Authority legitimate targets?

Are you attempting a drive by?

Hamas does target Israeli journalists. When they indiscriminately fire munitions into Israeli neighborhoods, their target is anyone.

 

[bit_pattern]

My interest is in Israel's targeting of Hamas members' homes because they are the homes of Hamas members.

Or, sometimes, not even the house of Hamas members.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/middle-eas...-missile-error-kills-nine-members-gaza-family

But, of course, when Israel massacres civilians its a regretful but unavoidable accident - although it is OK to imply blame on the victims because, well, they ARE Arabs and probably voted for Hamas, sooo... you know

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Are you suggesting that the "Palestinians" are too stupid to aim their weapons?

So, they are shooting aimlessly, with no regard to what, or who, they hit?


Sweet.

I'm saying their technology is pretty primitive by today's standards. What's the CEP 50 on a Katyusha, let alone a home-made Qassam?

Not saying that the should be firing missiles at Israel, btw, just asking the previous poster for evidence that the rocketeers were deliberately targeting something as specific as schools and residential neighbourhoods.

Because it means that due to demographics, Israel will disappear. And a single, rabidly anti-Semitic state will preside over the ruins.

Do you mean that Israel can only exist if its population is homogeneously (or strong majority) Jewish? What about all the other things that make Israel unique, such as its democratic tradition, relative secularism and freedom of the press? Or just the fact that Israel is a state, and so exists as a state the same way plenty of other states exist as states, regardless of their demographic makeup?

Also, what should be done about existing demographic challenges? Eventually
Arab Israelis will outnumber the Jewish ones, no? Or maybe I'm mistaken on this.

Asking Israelis to vote for a single state solution is to ask them to vote for pogroms, persecutions and/or exile (if their lucky; genocide if their unlucky). That is a platform singularly unlikely to win many Israeli votes...

With current attitudes on all sides, you might be right... but say, hypothetically, that you could be assured that an Arab majority in Israel wouldn't mean that all the Jewish Israelis would be killed (the same way white people in the US probably won't be killed when they become the minority there)... would a two-state solution be OK?

 

[John Mekki]

Why is this fictional map of 'Palestine' spammed all the time? For thousands of years after it was ancient Israel, this piece of land was under a number of empires. Especially under the Ottoman empire, the last one, personal land ownership was nominal. Even with the British land reforms of the mid 1920's, land sales to mainly Arabs (exclusively as well), predominantly took place around northern Israel and around Judea/Samaria, before the Jordanians named it the West Bank, and looked nothing like 'Palestinian Land' on the map. And the Negev? Who owned land in the Negev? Bedouins didn't.

But spam, spam away....maybe the rest of these fail arguments will be ignored

You are denying that Israel keeps building settlements in the West Bank?
You are denying that Israel has not recognized the State of Palestine on the ‘67 borders?

Please be clear

 

[bit_pattern]

Actually, my answer isn't. If Canada is being attacked as a retaliation for it's own attacks into the neighbouring state (the USA presumably) then it isn't a blameless victim any more than the Palestinian militants are.

Right, right. And what about when Canada is attacking in retaliation to repeated incursions by the USA that result in children being shot dead in the street, then the USA retaliates to that by firing tank shells across the border, then Canada retaliates again by firing a few backyard rockets over the wall of their concentration camp, to which the USA retaliates by assassinating a Canadian politician and chief peace broker, which triggers a wave of retaliatory rocket launches?

Whose the blameless victim then?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Right, right. And what about when Canada is attacking in retaliation to repeated incursions by the USA that result in children being shot dead in the street, then the USA retaliates to that by firing tank shells across the border, then Canada retaliates again by firing a few backyard rockets over the wall of their concentration camp, to which the USA retaliates by assassinating a Canadian politician and chief peace broker?

Whose the blameless victim then?

Well, that's a mighty impressive misrepresentation of the current situation there, but I can't say I'm surprised.