General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Safe-Keeper]

How do you define a 'base'?

Let me just take this opportunity to say that if a terrorist organization operates out of a house (or cabin, or boat, or circus tent), their base becomes a valid military target.

Blowing up the entire house with the terrorists in it seems like overkill to me, but I suppose when you can't have "boots on the ground", you've got to settle with a quick kill.

Does living with your family in a house make the house a 'base'?

Yup, if you're a combatant and your house is your barracks, then your house is essentially your base.

Goebbles would fit right in with Hamas.

The author of an opinion piece on HAMAS as an obstacle to peace made the point that HAMAS has a lot in common with European Neo-Nazis.

Among the comments was a reply from Tore Tvedt, the leader of one of Norway's largest Neo-Nazi organizations -- he thanked her for the compliment.

 

[Morrigan]

I don't know what the intention of people in this thread is supposed to be but if its swaying ppl to your POV then it ain't working, all the Israel Über Alles crowd have done is reinforced my distaste for the IDF and its militantly one-eyed supporters. Some of you people are seriously warped.

I don't know what the intention of people in this thread is supposed to be, but if it's swaying people to your POV then it ain't working, all the Palestine Über Alles crowd has done is reinforce my distaste for Hamas and its militantly one-eyed terrorist supporters. Some of you people are seriously warped.


See, I can play this game too. Y'know, make sweeping generalizations, refuse to discuss things rationally, refuse to acknowledge counter-arguments, refuse to acknowledge one's hypocrisy, make thinly-veiled personal attacks which targeting is general enough so that it just manages to avoid breaking the membership agreement, and so on.

Sigh.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I don't know what the intention of people in this thread is supposed to be but if its swaying ppl to your POV then it ain't working

It worked for me. Used to be one of the people who condemned Israel whenever they lifted a finger, and didn't realize I knew squat about the conflict or the various nuances. Participating in discussions here helped a lot.

How about you? Converted anyone so far?

See, I can play this game too. Y'know, make sweeping generalizations, refuse to discuss things rationally, refuse to acknowledge counter-arguments, refuse to acknowledge one's hypocrisy, make thinly-veiled personal attacks which targeting is general enough so that it just manages to avoid breaking the membership agreement, and so on.

That just about sums it up, yes.

Care to prove me wrong by answering the questions I've repeatedly asked in this thread? Such as, would you support Finnish freedom fighters shooting rockets into Russian neighbourhoods, if they stuck to doing so only in territory that was Finnish up until the Soviets took it in the fourties? After all, they would just be defending their country, right?

Right?

Goebbles would fit right in with Hamas. I suppose during WWII, had you been alive, you'd have rooted for the Nazis since you apparently like that philosophy. You know, kill the Jews.

No, I'm pretty certain you'd have been on the fascist side.

I have a feeling you're not going to answer, but

how so?

 

[WildCat]

I don't know what the intention of people in this thread is supposed to be but if its swaying ppl to your POV then it ain't working, all the Israel Über Alles crowd have done is reinforced my distaste for the IDF and its militantly one-eyed supporters. Some of you people are seriously warped.

That's the 4th time in the last few days you've used Nazi imagery to describe Israel.

That veneer is getting mighty transparent.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Yes.

Well, I find that immoral.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

MSNBC is suggesting this was a testing-the-Iran-attack-waters by Israel. Richard Engel, reporting from Gaza, agrees.

Specter of Iran Looms Over Gaza Crisis

The crisis in Gaza is a direct confrontation between Israel and Hamas’ Palestinian leadership, with a few other players—Egypt, Turkey and the U.S.—hovering around the edges, trying to arrange a cease-fire.

But looming over the proceedings is another significant power: Iran

The Iranian factor rears its head in multiple ways. Iran, most analysts believe, provided the longer-range rockets that have set this round of hostilities apart from others. Those rockets—likely versions of Iran’s Fajr-5—have given Hamas, for the first time, the ability to reach at least the outskirts of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. That has raised the stakes, to say nothing of the tensions inside Israel.

 

[WildCat]

Well, I find that immoral.

So all Hamas has to do is launch missiles from the roofs of civilian-occupied apartment buildings, and they're immune from attack, yes?

Let me guess, this is where you suggest sooper-ninja commandos to sneak through hostile territory undetected, break into the bad guys house without hurting anyone, and spirit him back to Israel? Have we had this conversation before, or was it someone else?

 

[Captain.Sassy]

So all Hamas has to do is launch missiles from the roofs of civilian-occupied apartment buildings, and they're immune from attack, yes?

Let me guess, this is where you suggest sooper-ninja commandos to sneak through hostile territory undetected, break into the bad guys house without hurting anyone, and spirit him back to Israel? Have we had this conversation before, or was it someone else?

No I don't think that was me.

Again, though, my earlier point was that targeting rocket launchers is different from targeting the homes of the families of Palestinian fighters, which is now an acknowledged Israeli policy.

 

[WildCat]

No I don't think that was me.

Again, though, my earlier point was that targeting rocket launchers is different from targeting the homes of the families of Palestinian fighters, which is now an acknowledged Israeli policy.

So you can kill the fighters, but they gain immunity once they go home, like some perk in a video game?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

In fact, the UN actually midwifed Israel into existence, which I think was A Good Thing.

It did no such thing. Israel took matters into their own hands. A proposal was made, they accepted, the Arab nations rejected and declared war, so Israel started their own state without them.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

So you can kill the fighters, but they gain immunity once they go home, like some perk in a video game?

Are the homes of Israeli soldiers also then legitimate targets?

If so, are these homes in residential areas?

Doesn't this, by your implied logic, make any part of Israel a legitimate target?

 

[angrysoba]

It did no such thing. Israel took matters into their own hands. A proposal was made, they accepted, the Arab nations rejected and declared war, so Israel started their own state without them.

It was passed by the UN who then accepted Israel as a nation state. You may have heard that Palestine has not been.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Yet Israel kills far more Arabs than vice versa. Let me turn the question on you, how many Palestinians have to die before its OK for Palestinians to defend themselves?

Or is only 'Jews' lives that we're supposed to care about?

Ah, I see another one who's head this went clear over. When you're not too busy rolling your eyes, start thinking about what you're saying. What you are saying is the aggressor is determined by the number of deaths. And as pointed out, but you clearly didn't read is the REASON for the disproportion of deaths. The reason the Palestinians have so many more deaths is not because of Israel, it's because of Hamas. Israel warns them and targets only military targets. Hamas intentionally puts them in harms way.

You can't simply look at the death tolls, you have to look at who is responsible for those deaths. Your solution is that Israel should not be able to defend itself against rockets being launched at their civilians. You're claiming that intentionally killing civilian is self defense? What kind of crack must one intake in order to justify such a claim?

If they want to defend themselves, they need only stop launching rockets. It's really that simple. No rockets, no attacks to take out the rockets they hide in civilian populations. Hamas is not defending itself and recklessly firing rockets into civilian populations with the hopes of hitting anything is not defense. Taking out military targets that are the source of attacks IS defense.

Using precession guided weapons and targeting weapons and military personel is a defense. Launching rockets at civilians is not. Maybe you will start to get the picture?

 

[bit_pattern]

Are the homes of Israeli soldiers also then legitimate targets?

If so, are these homes in residential areas?

Doesn't this, by your implied logic, make any part of Israel a legitimate target?

Sure does! Especially when you take onto account that military service is compulsory there's as much chance of hitting the home of an IDF member by lobbing those fire crackers over the wall as there is an IDF not killing a kid when they drop bombs on the homes/families of alleged Hamas members

 

[WildCat]

Are the homes of Israeli soldiers also then legitimate targets?

If so, are these homes in residential areas?

Doesn't this, by your implied logic, make any part of Israel a legitimate target?

Barracks are certainly a legit target.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

It was passed by the UN who then accepted Israel as a nation state. You may have heard that Palestine has not been.

Israel is a state wether the UN accepts it or not. What do you think the UN gives out state licenses or something? They are like the magic state fairy? Palestine can create a state any time it wants. It wants to UN involved so it can avoid proper negotiations with Israel over the land dispute and try to strong arm that land away from Israel. It's never gonna happen because the UN has no involvement in making countries and has no power to do anything.

 

[WildCat]

It was passed by the UN who then accepted Israel as a nation state. You may have heard that Palestine has not been.

Because the Palestinians rejected their own state, they wanted the whole enchilada.

 

[angrysoba]

Because the Palestinians rejected their own state, they wanted the whole enchilada.

Indeed. I never said otherwise.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Barracks are certainly a legit target.

Okay, but what about the homes of the soldiers?

Cause from what I understand, that's what's being targeted in Gaza - the homes of Hamas fighters and their families.

 

[angrysoba]

Israel is a state wether the UN accepts it or not. What do you think the UN gives out state licenses or something? They are like the magic state fairy? Palestine can create a state any time it wants. It wants to UN involved so it can avoid proper negotiations with Israel over the land dispute and try to strong arm that land away from Israel. It's never gonna happen because the UN has no involvement in making countries and has no power to do anything.

Yes, the UN is exactly like the magic state fairy. It confers international legitimacy.

I could declare myself a state but no one would recognize me as one. Similarly, as you say, Palestine can, and no doubt DOES declare itself a state often enough but it isn't recognized as one by almost anyone outside the Arab and Muslim World.

As for the UN involvement, I have said that I would like to see it and not to strongarm land away from Israel, but to impose a peace, of sorts which would involve UN inspectors dismantling Hamas weapons and the UN preventing any more settlements, which, could easily be considered the strongarming of land away from the residents of the West Bank. Or do you think that the settlements are myth?