General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bit_pattern]

First tell us how many jews need to be killed before it is morally expectable for them to defend themselves. I would really like someone to answer this questions. It's funny too how people who make this argument never suggest Hamas stop firing rockets at civilians.
.

Yet Israel kills far more Arabs than vice versa. Let me turn the question on you, how many Palestinians have to die before its OK for Palestinians to defend themselves?

Or is only 'Jews' lives that we're supposed to care about?

 

[bit_pattern]

So somehow Israel convinces the Palestinians to elect radicals to office in place of moderates?

Wow, the Jews are even smarter then I thought.

Sigh... this really is the most pointless thread on JREF. The sneering and condescension is just at fever pitch.

 

[trustbutverify]

Actually, your numbers are off. The rockets from Gaza are not well aimed. The vast majority fall in open areas. The iron dome system actually calculates a solution to all rockets but does not try to intercept the rocket if it is not directed to populated areas.

This the system try to intercept only a fraction of the rockets. Out of those the system had around 85% success rate, why is way better then I expected. The result is that while in the current exchange of fire Hamas has shot more rockets compared to cast lead, less of them managed to hit populated areas. It is too early to say if the system will force Israel neighbors to change their strategic approach (meaning using rockets to attack Israeli cities) but the system may prove very important in the long run.

Thanks for the correction. If the IDF estimate of 85-90% kill ratio is accurate, my 15% estimate of no-threat rockets is way too low. I knew militant launches were often wildly inaccurate, but didn't know it was that bad.

My understanding was that the algorithm calculated hit area first, and unless that area was designated to be protected, aborted the run before a firing solution was calculated. But you may be right- I suppose it wouldn't affect speed or efficiency much either way.

The highlighted part was why I noted the potentially profound implications for air defense. Looking forward, future versions of the system could target aircraft (Israel claims it can now) and long range projectiles. Also, I'm sure IDF is running a counter-Dome program parallel with system development both to develop strategies against enemies armed with a defensive shield, and to counter tactics others may use against Dome.

 

[angrysoba]

What's your problem? Do you want Virus to shut up? Don't you want a decisive, crushing defeat of Hamas? Are you afraid the conflict will finally end?

I despise Hamas and I have never had a good word to say of them. As for Virus shutting up, my advice about sticking to the one-liners is really for his sake. Better to be semi-coherent and have everyone to think he relishes death and killing rather than make a full-throated demand for it and remove all doubt.

Y'see if he wants to paint himself as the biggest advocate of no-holds-barred warfare in which all those wimpy Geneva Conventions and concern for refugees are removed, then it really makes him no different to Hamas who would conduct the war in any fashion they chose if they so could. Fortunately, Israeli forces are not the way Virus wants them to.

 

[angrysoba]

The UN is the biggest scam ever, but some people love to use it when it comes to Israel.

In fact, the UN actually midwifed Israel into existence, which I think was A Good Thing.

 

[Giz]

Yet Israel kills far more Arabs than vice versa. Let me turn the question on you, how many Palestinians have to die before its OK for Palestinians to defend themselves?

Or is only 'Jews' lives that we're supposed to care about?

A lot more Germans and Japanese died in WW2 than Americans. Does that mean the USA was the bad guy in WW2?

 

[Captain.Sassy]

If these houses are used as bases, that makes them legitimate targets by anyone's standards.

How do you define a 'base'? My understanding is they're just targeting where Hamas members live. Does living with your family in a house make the house a 'base'?

 

[John Mekki]

I thought you were an expert on this matter? You realize it was only in this "private mail" that Arafat promised that the PLO would finally amend their Covenant and recognize Israel? Guess what? They never did.

It wasn't public, it was only in the private letter from Arafat to Rabin. Arafat never followed through, the Covenant was never amended.
Nobody is supporting Hamas, and I apologize if I did any mistake in assuming the position of Arafat on the Israeli right to exist
(need to do some research by myself, as you said I am not an expert).

This said.

Salam Fayyad is asking for Israeli recognition of a Palestinian State on 22% of the British Mandate-era of Palestine.
They are not asking for 100% of the territory.
Why is this seen as a threat to Israel?
And in which sense keep building settlements and eradicating Palestinian people is supposed to help the peace process?

I would be grateful if you can reply to me on this

Because the 1967 borders didn't prevent the Arabs from launching a war to destroy Israel in 1967, what has changed since? Especially since there's no documents or other evidence on the Palestinian side that they have given up their demands for all of Israel.

And how stealing land that does not belong to you is supposed to help the peace process with the other side?

Isael offered land swaps as compensation for the settlements (most of which would revert to PA control) and the Palestinians rejected it without even offering a counterproposal. And of course, Hamas which represents Palestinians in Gaza have never accepted anything less than the destruction of Israel and death of the Jews as their conditions for peace. Peace, of course, defined as "no more Jews".

I am not defending the position of Hamas.
I am saying: why you offer land in compensation of something, when the land you are offering does not belong to you in first place?
And what exactly would prevent Israel from recognizing the Palestinian state, go back to their borders in first place?

 

[Giz]

I despise Hamas and I have never had a good word to say of them. As for Virus shutting up, my advice about sticking to the one-liners is really for his sake. Better to be semi-coherent and have everyone to think he relishes death and killing rather than make a full-throated demand for it and remove all doubt.

Y'see if he wants to paint himself as the biggest advocate of no-holds-barred warfare in which all those wimpy Geneva Conventions and concern for refugees are removed, then it really makes him no different to Hamas who would conduct the war in any fashion they chose if they so could. Fortunately, Israeli forces are not the way Virus wants them to.

Virus's point, and he can correct me if I am wrong, is that due to an awful mix of Palestinian culture and international pressure, we have a situation where there is no real lasting downside (either territorially or financially) for the Palestinians when they attempt military aggression (and fail). (Sure some die but the leadership just blames it on Israel and uses any mourning to solidify its power and as PR chips in the media war).

(Whereas accepting an honorable peace - with a despised & hated foe - would see them lose huge amounts of "face").

This leads to a never ending perpetual conflict that will, as long as the Palestinians are shielded from the consequences of their actions*, continue on... generation after generation.


* i.e. being given international aid when they can already afford rockets. Let them make the decision: food for their children or rockets? Then, maybe, there'll be progress.

 

[bit_pattern]

How do you define a 'base'? My understanding is they're just targeting where Hamas members live. Does living with your family in a house make the house a 'base'?

Like that "base" that was occupied by 9 children and not a single Hamas that Is real so bravely dropped tonnes of explosives on from the safety of an f-16

 

[WildCat]

Your Israeli case is BS. Supposing they did give up violence, say for a 3-month window. If there were Israelis killed during that time, it would give them the moral high ground. As it is, they just keep pummeling each other.

Err, that's pretty much what happened. And for some reason, like always, that promised moral high ground never materializes. It's always Israel's fault, and anything they do to defend themselves will be wrong.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Not really....
So Israeli forces only entered after they identified explosives planted near the fence. But identifying this as the source of violence will still give you the wrong answer. This is actually typical of the superficial level of coverage that one get from the international media.

I'm only interested in this specific incident, or series of closely related incidents, on November 8th.

Regarding this specific incident and escalation, the initial trigger for the series of reprisals seems to have been this:

The Israeli military said its forces, which had entered some 100 to 200 meters (yards) inside Gaza, came under fire and responded by firing at "suspicious locations".

I'm google news searching 'Gaza' by day.

November 7th, the news seems to be mostly about a crocodile.

November 6th, there are a few articles about 1,200 new settlement buildings in Jerusalem. Some stuff about some some egyptians visiting Gaza or something.

November 5th, there is some mention of Israeli soldiers patrolling the fence (on the Gaza side, I'm assuming) being injured in an explosion.

 

[bit_pattern]

Virus's point, and he can correct me if I am wrong, is that due to an awful mix of Palestinian culture and international pressure, we have a situation where there is no real lasting downside (either territorially or financially) for the Palestinians when they attempt military aggression (and fail). (Sure some die but the leadership just blames it on Israel and uses any mourning to solidify its power and as PR chips in the media war).

(Whereas accepting an honorable peace - with a despised & hated foe - would see them lose huge amounts of "face").

This leads to a never ending perpetual conflict that will, as long as the Palestinians are shielded from the consequences of their actions*, continue on... generation after generation.


* i.e. being given international aid when they can already afford rockets. Let them make the decision: food for their children or rockets? Then, maybe, there'll be progress.

I just threw up in my mouth a little. I've never seen a group of people so successfully dehumanised that the Palestinians have been in the minds of some. Say what you like about hasbrah, it works a treat. Goebbles would be jealous

 

[Morrigan]

That's got nothing to do with you saying Id agreed with the premise you said I'd agreed to

I said no such thing. I asked for clarification, which you still refuse to provide, apparently. Oh well, suit yourself. I apologize if I misrepresented your views, it was not my intention, but you're not exactly a beacon of clarity here.

Hamas has only been a major player in this conflict for the last 10 - 15 years, there's been plenty of opportunity and plenty of other players.

So? Hamas is in power right now, they were elected by the Palestinian people, and they are the ones who categorically refuse peace as an option. Do you agree or disagree with this?

Israel prefers to empower terrorists (Arafat, Hamas) than deal with moderates because it gives them justification to perpetuate conflict. Israel has always been playing a long game.

Wait what? Israel empowered Hamas? And here I thought they had been elected by the Palestinian people... tell me, how'd Israel manage to rig those Palestinian elections?

Yet Israel kills far more Arabs than vice versa. Let me turn the question on you, how many Palestinians have to die before its OK for Palestinians to defend themselves?

Initiating aggression by lobbing rockets into civilian areas is "defending itself" now?

Or is only 'Jews' lives that we're supposed to care about?

No one has said that. But yay for stupid equivalences...

Sigh... this really is the most pointless thread on JREF. The sneering and condescension is just at fever pitch.

A lot more Germans and Japanese died in WW2 than Americans. Does that mean the USA was the bad guy in WW2?

Don't expect any answer to that, or even any acknowledgement.

 

[angrysoba]

Virus's point, and he can correct me if I am wrong, is that due to an awful mix of Palestinian culture and international pressure, we have a situation where there is no real lasting downside (either territorially or financially) for the Palestinians when they attempt military aggression (and fail). (Sure some die but the leadership just blames it on Israel and uses any mourning to solidify its power and as PR chips in the media war).

(Whereas accepting an honorable peace - with a despised & hated foe - would see them lose huge amounts of "face").

This leads to a never ending perpetual conflict that will, as long as the Palestinians are shielded from the consequences of their actions*, continue on... generation after generation.


* i.e. being given international aid when they can already afford rockets. Let them make the decision: food for their children or rockets? Then, maybe, there'll be progress.

My reading of Virus was that he longs for the days of Chingis Khan's way of warfare where only after complete and annhilating victory there'll be a peace of sorts because everyone on the other side will be dead. Fine, if that's what he wants, I think we should let him air his views, repugnant as they are.

You can hardly say there is "no downside for the Palestinians" waging war (Virus actually says "Hamas") when you only have to watch your TV screens to see that there is. Of course, if there is no upside to Palestinians choosing peace then that is a problem too. And that seems to be the case, right now, as the West Bank is still being settled.

Also, please note, that Virus said that one-state, two-state or three-state solutions are irrelevant. Well, they may be to him, but do you honestly think that?

One more thing, as uneasy as the Cold Peace between Egypt and Israel is and between Jordan and Israel, it would seem to me that the alternative - a war between Israel and all the Arab states until one side or the other is annhilated, is not a Good Thing. If we agree to that then it undermines the fundamental premise of Virus' argument that a total annhilating war is necessary and the best solution.

 

[WildCat]

And how stealing land that does not belong to you is supposed to help the peace process with the other side?



I am not defending the position of Hamas.
I am saying: why you offer land in compensation of something, when the land you are offering does not belong to you in first place?
And what exactly would prevent Israel from recognizing the Palestinian state, go back to their borders in first place?

Seriously dude, take a deep breath and look at what you're saying. You say all of Israel is on land that doesn't belong to them, and then you talk about Israel's borders?

 

[WildCat]

I just threw up in my mouth a little. I've never seen a group of people so successfully dehumanised that the Palestinians have been in the minds of some. Say what you like about hasbrah, it works a treat. Goebbles would be jealous

Goebbles would fit right in with Hamas.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comments

 

[WildCat]

Wait what? Israel empowered Hamas? And here I thought they had been elected by the Palestinian people... tell me, how'd Israel manage to rig those Palestinian elections?

Did you know Israel has millions of Jews? Those people control everything, and everything that happens is by their design.

 

[balrog666]

How do you define a 'base'? My understanding is they're just targeting where Hamas members live. Does living with your family in a house make the house a 'base'?

Yes.

 

[bit_pattern]

I don't know what the intention of people in this thread is supposed to be but if its swaying ppl to your POV then it ain't working, all the Israel Über Alles crowd have done is reinforced my distaste for the IDF and its militantly one-eyed supporters. Some of you people are seriously warped.