General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[WildCat]

It's no longer occupied, it's merely cut off from the rest of the world.

When did that happen? Immediately after it was made Jew-free, or did something happen later?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is Gaza shrinking? I thought settlement expansion was mostly done in the WB?

Maps of Palestine

Historic Palestine
UN Partition of Palestine
1948 Israel, West Bank, and Gaza Strip
Refugees and Depopulated Villages
1967 and Occupation
Annexation of Jerusalem
Israeli Settlements on Palestinian Land

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population. The indigenous Palestinians rejected the division of the land on which they had lived and farmed for centuries.

At the time of partition, the Jewish population owned less than 6% of Palestine.

From there Israel took more and more land.

There are now thousands of these settlements throughout the West Bank and Gaza, as well as numerous settlements in the Syrian Golan Heights.

Here's another comparison of the territories over time.

IIR, there were Gaza settlements that Israel paid the settlers to leave. That was a positive step.

You said your family was evicted in Europe. My brother's ex's family was evicted from Palestine when Israel claimed they needed the land for a security buffer. They paid the Palestinian families pennies on the dollar compared to full price for similar confiscated land and homes from their Jewish neighbors.

Gaza is no longer occupied. Hamas and other groups should refrain from constantly firing rockets over the border as it precludes normalising relation or even a cease-fire....

So a total embargo/control of goods entering your territory is not occupation?



While in principle, I agree with your position, if only Hamas would stop, everything would be fine. However, in principle, Israelis keep poking them with their stick.

I find the Palestinian's culture to be very problematic. Using a Mickey Mouse character to instill hatred in children is not helpful in the least. And like I said, the rockets are not helping their cause in any way I can see.

But my objection is to people completely ignoring Israel's role which is just as problematic. Their politicians thrive on the victim role and in doing so can't seem to recognize the injustice they heap on the Palestinians.

 

[WildCat]

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population.

How much of that 55% was the Negev desert?

Does it still seem like an unfair partition?

 

[JihadJane]

"This is—this is a situation of targeting a population of civilians, exactly like Israel is shooting in a fishbowl. And there is no bunker—or, there is no shelter, and there is nowhere to run for the general population."

"Nowhere to Run": Israel Fires Over 500 Strikes in Gaza, Civilian Toll Grows in Humanitarian Crisis

 

[Giz]

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population.

Well, the Palestinians also got 100% of Jordan... so they really didn't do too badly.

 

[Giz]

It's no longer occupied, it's merely cut off from the rest of the world.

Anything peaceful can get in - it just needs to be searched by Israel to make sure it isn't more rockets. (Oh the humanity!!)

The frequency of the wholesale destruction seems to coincide with the Knesset election cycle.

Also, it coincided with Hamas firing 100+ rockets within the last week.

 

[ddt]

Anything peaceful can get in - it just needs to be searched by Israel to make sure it isn't more rockets. (Oh the humanity!!)

Obviously not anything peaceful. Only piecemeal.

Also, it coincided with Hamas firing 100+ rockets within the last week.

Are you saying Hamas is in bed with some Israeli political leaders to make them look good (=tough) during the election campaign? There has been obviously an escalation of various incidents running up to this. The timing - two months before elections, as with the 2008/2009 Gaza war - seems suspicious.

I wonder if Israel had counted on missiles reaching Dimona, Tel Aviv and even Jerusalem. And now Israel calls up 75,000 reservists for a ground war. This is going to be a replay of the 2008/2009 war.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Killing Hamas's # 2 (commander of Hamas's military wing) doesn't count as an extra-judicial killing (not a form of 'policing'), its a targeted killing of a military target, Jabari being part of the command . If civilians were targeted that took part in hostilities, then this killing would be questionable, depending on their involvement.

And the rocket fire en masse actually started more in October: List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2012, and has been somewhat a daily occurrence for years already.

 

[bigjelmapro]

"This is—this is a situation of targeting a population of civilians, exactly like Israel is shooting in a fishbowl. And there is no bunker—or, there is no shelter, and there is nowhere to run for the general population."

Only Hamas leaders are running to the bunkers they built. And hiding in the basements of hospitals next to the children's ward just like the last war.

So I guess Israel should be to blame for the Palestinians not having bunkers, since Hamas thought it more important to build malls, apartment complexes, and whatever they wished to build with locally made cement.

And 500 targets hit and what......a dozen or so civilians dead?

 

[Giz]

Obviously not anything peaceful. Only piecemeal.


Are you saying Hamas is in bed with some Israeli political leaders to make them look good (=tough) during the election campaign? There has been obviously an escalation of various incidents running up to this. The timing - two months before elections, as with the 2008/2009 Gaza war - seems suspicious.

I wonder if Israel had counted on missiles reaching Dimona, Tel Aviv and even Jerusalem. And now Israel calls up 75,000 reservists for a ground war. This is going to be a replay of the 2008/2009 war.

Seems more likely that Israel has (rightly or wrongly) only a certain amount of diplomatic leeway before most of the world gets pissed of at it.

If Israel uses up its leeway attacking Hamas, then maybe it wont be able to attack Iran without sever repercussions... which might dissuade it from doing so (until it's too late).


Note: I think Israel is in the right in this and its actions are both understandable and justified. The above analysis is just a view of why Hamas/Iran might like the Israelis getting stuck into Gaza now...

 

[George 152]

Just push the arab nutters back to where the Israeli cities are out of range.

 

[trustbutverify]

It's exactly these kinds of histrionics that make any kind of rational discussion of the issues involved in this conflict. It ALWAYS reverts to a hysterical appeal to emotion of this kind that create a circular reasoning, THEY want to push US into the sea, therefore any concessions aids and abets that desire. End argument. It's this kind of painfully cyclical logic that just grinds any dispassionate discussion of the issue to a shuddering halt.

So you don't believe Hamas and other militant groups when they disclose that negotiated agreements with Israel are simply temporary positions which present better opportunities to defeat it?

 

[John Mekki]

So do people targeted for genocide.

But apparently it's a crime to resist your demise if you're a Jew.

And I guess keep building and expanding your settlements outside your country borders is called "resist your demise" and not "stealing land"

 

[WildCat]

And I guess keep building and expanding your settlements outside your country borders is called "resist your demise" and not "stealing land"

Maybe the 3 wars to exterminate the Jews weren't such a good idea, and has repurcussions?

Israel put forth a proposal of 1967 borders with land swaps to make up for the difference from the built-up settlements on the border, which also meant most of the settlements (and let's face it, 90% are just a few trailers on a hilltop) would become part of Palesrine. The PA rejected it without even putting forth a counter-proposal. Then there's the little problem of being no unified PA, what with Gaza being run by genocidal terrorists who want all of Israel and all the Jews dead and regularly launch attacks on Israel. They're tough to negotiate with from that starting point.

 

[bikerdruid]

There is in fact a technical term used for that situation: embargo.

perhaps,but an embargo does not restrict movement of people.
for example, although the USA has an embargo on cuba, people can still come and go to cuba as they wish..

the united states does not stop and detain all ships heading to cuba.
handwave all you wish.
gaza is under seige.

 

[Mycroft]

zionists believe that they are 'the chosen of god'.
zionists believe they have a right to evict palestinians from their land because god gave it to them.

they consider themselves above the rest of us.
i call that 'supremacist'.
what do you call it?

Zionism was a political movement to establish a homeland for the Jewish people in the Holy Land. A Zionist was someone who supported that movement. In modern times, a Zionist would be someone who supports the continued existence and well-being of the state of Israel.

The Zionist movement did not involve evicting anyone from their land, it involved legally buying land so Jewish immigrants could form new communities.

Your information is not only wrong, but it smears an entire people.

 

[bikerdruid]

nd, it involved legally buying land so Jewish immigrants could form new communities.

in the west bank, palestinian homes are routinely bulldozed to make room for new israeli settlers.

 

[JihadJane]

'Who is doing the killing in Gaza?

The degree of terror felt by ordinary Palestinian civilians in Gaza is barely noticed in the media, in stark contrast to the world's awareness of terrorised and shock-treated Israeli citizens.'

...articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay.

Then, on November 8, a 13-year-old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Well done Israel. You got the bastard.

As for the "But Israel hits civilians!!!11" crowd.

1. Tell Hamas to stop setting up their rocket platforms in schools then. If someone shoots at Israel, Israel should not be forced to sit and take it just because the shooter is near civilians.

2. Tell Hamas militants to wear a uniform, because bugger me if it wouldn't be so very easy for Hamas to clear the guns away from a strike area before they start filming it and proclaim the area to just be civilians with no militants.

 

[bit_pattern]

'Who is doing the killing in Gaza?

The degree of terror felt by ordinary Palestinian civilians in Gaza is barely noticed in the media, in stark contrast to the world's awareness of terrorised and shock-treated Israeli citizens.'

Don't be silly. No one cares about dirty ay-rabs, they're probably Muslim anyway. Israel is pure of heart and csm do no wrong. Have your learned nothing from JREF over the years?