General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Doctor Evil]

Another reason why its pointless trying to have dispassionate discussion about the issue with your lot, any criticism is written off as "racism". Pathetic.

And, no, no personal attacks: I didn't say anything personal, I referred to the bloc of pro-hypernationalism, its a reflection on the mindset of an ideology, not a personal attack. But, hey, you guys have come doing way by smearing your opponents

When in a whole, its best to stop digging. It should have been obvious, even to you, that I referring to a very specific comment that you made as racist. It should be clear why. In response you try to claim that I would somehow refer to any criticism of Israel as racist. That is ********. You chose to use the Uber Alles line because its connotation with Nazi Germany. Deal with it.

As for the rest of your comments, do you fail to realize how silly they make you look. You clearly project your behavior onto other posters.

 

[bit_pattern]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern
Another reason why its pointless trying to have dispassionate discussion about the issue with your lot, any criticism is written off as "racism". Pathetic.

And, no, no personal attacks: I didn't say anything personal, I referred to the bloc of pro-hypernationalism, its a reflection on the mindset of an ideology, not a personal attack. But, hey, you guys have come doing way by smearing your opponents

When in a whole, its best to stop digging. It should have been obvious, even to you, that I referring to a very specific comment that you made as racist. It should be clear why. In response you try to claim that I would somehow refer to any criticism of Israel as racist. That is ********. You chose to use the Uber Alles line because its connotation with Nazi Germany. Deal with it.

As for the rest of your comments, do you fail to realize how silly they make you look. You clearly project your behavior onto other posters.

How is comparing Israel to Nazi Germany racist by any definition of the word? You can call it a lot if things - false equivalence, slippery slope, non sequitur etc - but 'racist: isn't one of them. But, as usual, the Israel Über Alles crowd just can't help themselves to jump at the opportunity to smear anyone who criticises/questions Israel's actions as being racist antisemites. So while you had the opportunity to call out my logical fallacy for what it was, instead you choose to indulge your own logical fallacy. Bravo, bravo!

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Damn, I missed the opportunity to make this statement:



That said, bit_pattern, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is extremely flawed, since Israel isn't:

- running a campaign of rape which is encouraged by issuing condoms to soldiers
- rounding Palestinians into barns and burning them alive
- taking Palestinians, forcing them to march across minefields and shooting them all if an Israeli officer steps on a mine
- kidnapping Palestinians and carving them up without anaesthetic
- forcing them into extreme temperatures just to see how long it would take for them to die, along with other experiments that are so cruel, only Unit 731 is an appropriate comparison.
- working them to death as slave labour
- ripping out Palestinian teeth to get at the gold fillings
- subjecting Palestinians to typhus, cholera and other nasty diseases.

Basically, you are saying Israel is comparable to evil incarnate.

 

[angrysoba]

How is comparing Israel to Nazi Germany racist by any definition of the word? You can call it a lot if things - false equivalence, slippery slope, non sequitur etc - but 'racist: isn't one of them. But, as usual, the Israel Über Alles crowd just can't help themselves to jump at the opportunity to smear anyone who criticises/questions Israel's actions as being racist antisemites. So while you had the opportunity to call out my logical fallacy for what it was, instead you choose to indulge your own logical fallacy. Bravo, bravo!

It's often considered a jibe, as in, "Oh boo hoo! You whine about the Holocaust and yet emulate the perpetrators!"

Perhaps if someone were to say, "Obama appeared at the White House Press Conference in a white sheet to tell the assembled cross-burners that he had lynched bin Laden and it was a time for a picnic" we might find the analogies a little more than hyperbolic or false equivalence.

 

[bit_pattern]

Damn, I missed the opportunity to make this statement:



That said, bit_pattern, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is extremely flawed, since Israel isn't:

- running a campaign of rape which is encouraged by issuing condoms to soldiers
- rounding Palestinians into barns and burning them alive
- taking Palestinians, forcing them to march across minefields and shooting them all if an Israeli officer steps on a mine
- kidnapping Palestinians and carving them up without anaesthetic
- forcing them into extreme temperatures just to see how long it would take for them to die, along with other experiments that are so cruel, only Unit 731 is an appropriate comparison.
- working them to death as slave labour
- ripping out Palestinian teeth to get at the gold fillings
- subjecting Palestinians to typhus, cholera and other nasty diseases.

Basically, you are saying Israel is comparable to evil incarnate.

It would be if those were the reason I was making the comparison

BUT I will give you this much - 'flawed' is a much better and more accurate criticism, by orders of magnitude, than the moronic assertion from the guy posting immediately before you that comments were 'racist'. So, yeah, credit where its due

 

[bigjelmapro]

perhaps,but an embargo does not restrict movement of people.
for example, although the USA has an embargo on cuba, people can still come and go to cuba as they wish..

the united states does not stop and detain all ships heading to cuba.
handwave all you wish.
gaza is under seige.

That's a naval blockade. You can't rewrite what the term siege is. Move along.

 

[Virus]

The real inheritors of Nazism are the Palestinians. They write Nazi textbooks and promote The Protocols in schools. They were Nazi allies during WW2 and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's guest of honor in Berlin.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Sad sad little Abbas whinging for attention:

Abbas: Israel trying to undermine Palestinian UN bid

...
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel on Friday of launching an assault on the Gaza Strip to undermine his efforts to secure a diplomatic upgrade at the United Nations.

Is everything a timing conspiracy to these nutters? Reminds me of the posts of some people here, but I'm sure just as Abbas is vying for attention here, so are some of the posters here.

 

[bit_pattern]

That's a naval blockade. You can't rewrite what the term siege is. Move along.

If you can split semantic hairs enough the you can completely decontextualise what it is that Israel us doing because no one has ever done it before. Typical of the Orwellian doublespeak that Israel has so perfected

 

[bit_pattern]

It's often considered a jibe, as in, "Oh boo hoo! You whine about the Holocaust and yet emulate the perpetrators!"

Perhaps if someone were to say, "Obama appeared at the White House Press Conference in a white sheet to tell the assembled cross-burners that he had lynched bin Laden and it was a time for a picnic" we might find the analogies a little more than hyperbolic or false equivalence.

Those are both fair criticisms, my comments could be construed in either of the ways you describe. But racist? Hells no. That's a moronic assertion from someone whose reflexive response to debating this issue is to try and marginalise critics of Israel by smearing them as racist.

 

[Doctor Evil]

How is comparing Israel to Nazi Germany racist by any definition of the word? You can call it a lot if things - false equivalence, slippery slope, non sequitur etc - but 'racist: isn't one of them. But, as usual, the Israel Über Alles crowd just can't help themselves to jump at the opportunity to smear anyone who criticises/questions Israel's actions as being racist antisemites. So while you had the opportunity to call out my logical fallacy for what it was, instead you choose to indulge your own logical fallacy. Bravo, bravo!

You may want to consult the EU working definition of antisemitism. Here is a link.

I see you insist on persisting with you name calling and Nazi comparisons. Let me make this clear, I do not call anyone who criticize Israel racist. On the other hand, you use racist language while criticizing Israel. This is disgusting.
http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/as-workingdefinition-draft.pdf

 

[a_unique_person]

The anti-missile system is named the Iron Dome. Which must be a deliberate reference to the Iron Wall concept that was proposed way back when the creation of modern Israel was being contemplated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Wall_(essay)

What is happening now has nothing to do with Nazi's, a unique brand of Palestinian thuggery, or anything else. It was predicted because Jabotinsky knew that Palestinians would react the same way any one else has done in the same situation, indeed, as the original Israeli's did in Roman times, with force. He proposes the only way to summarily deal with this is superior power, hence the Iron Wall, which now includes the Iron Dome.

 

[bit_pattern]

The anti-missile system is named the Iron Dome. Which must be a deliberate reference to the Iron Wall concept that was proposed way back when the creation of modern Israel was being contemplated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Wall_(essay)

What is happening now has nothing to do with Nazi's, a unique brand of Palestinian thuggery, or anything else. It was predicted because Jabotinsky knew that Palestinians would react the same way any one else has done in the same situation, indeed, as the original Israeli's did in Roman times, with force. He proposes the only way to summarily deal with this is superior power, hence the Iron Wall, which now includes the Iron Dome.

Nicely done AUP

 

[uke2se]

Can I ask you, Bit_pattern, what your prefered solution is for the Israel-Palestine conflict? A return to '67 borders? A return to '48 borders? The complete destruction of Israel as a sovereign state? A two-state solution?

I ask because I usually see you as a rational person, but I've noticed quite a bit of irrational partisanship these last few pages.

 

[Doctor Evil]

The anti-missile system is named the Iron Dome. Which must be a deliberate reference to the Iron Wall concept that was proposed way back when the creation of modern Israel was being contemplated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Wall_(essay)

What is happening now has nothing to do with Nazi's, a unique brand of Palestinian thuggery, or anything else. It was predicted because Jabotinsky knew that Palestinians would react the same way any one else has done in the same situation, indeed, as the original Israeli's did in Roman times, with force. He proposes the only way to summarily deal with this is superior power, hence the Iron Wall, which now includes the Iron Dome.

Why must the name be a deliberate reference for Jabotinsky? Aren't you assuming too much here?

I do not know how the name was chosen. Here is what wikipedia claims about it:

Project leader Colonel S. and his team in the Administration for the Development of Weapons and Technological Infrastructure (Maf'at) had very little spare time, and only in the weekends could they think of an appropriate name for the system. According to Colonel S., "The first name I thought of was 'Anti-Qassam', but when the project started to move forward I realized it was problematic ... I sat down with my wife, and together we thought of suitable names. She suggested the name 'Tamir' (Hebrew acronym for טיל מיירט, Til Meyaret, "interceptor missile") for the missile, and for the system itself we thought of 'Golden Dome'. The following Sunday, 'Tamir' was immediately approved, but there was a problem with 'Golden Dome' – it could be perceived as too ostentatious. So it was changed to 'Iron Dome'."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome#cite_note-idfStatsApril12-7

This does not really fit your preconceived assumptions.

 

[bit_pattern]

Can I ask you, Bit_pattern, what your prefered solution is for the Israel-Palestine conflict? A return to '67 borders? A return to '48 borders? The complete destruction of Israel as a sovereign state? A two-state solution?

I ask because I usually see you as a rational person, but I've noticed quite a bit of irrational partisanship these last few pages.

One state solution. Either that or Israel needs to do one of two things;

1. Give up on the WB and withdrawal to 1967, as per the UNSC Resolution

Or;

2. Man the **** up and own their claim to the land and just take it, expel the civilian population, be damned what the world thinks and live with the consequences

But this kind of Kafkaesque nightmare, where millions of people are trapped in a perpetual statelessness, where the oppressor engages in no end of Orwellian doublespeak contortions to dehumanise civilians, it makes me sick to the very core of my being.

 

[bit_pattern]

You may want to consult the EU working definition of antisemitism. Here is a link.

I see you insist on persisting with you name calling and Nazi comparisons. Let me make this clear, I do not call anyone who criticize Israel racist. On the other hand, you use racist language while criticizing Israel. This is disgusting.
http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/as-workingdefinition-draft.pdf

How is the comparison racist? Please, stick to literal definitions. My breath is bested in anticipation of your reply

 

[uke2se]

One state solution. Either that or Israel needs to do one of two things;

1. Give up on the WB and withdrawal to 1967, as per the UNSC Resolution

Or;

2. Man the **** up and own their claim to the land and just take it, expel the civilian population, be damned what the world thinks and live with the consequences

But this kind of Kafkaesque nightmare, where millions of people are trapped in a perpetual statelessness, where the oppressor engages in no end of Orwellian doublespeak contortions to dehumanise civilians, it makes me sick to the very core of my being.

Nice to see we agree on this.

 

[WildCat]

2. Tell Hamas militants to wear a uniform, because bugger me if it wouldn't be so very easy for Hamas to clear the guns away from a strike area before they start filming it and proclaim the area to just be civilians with no militants.

It's amazing how 90+% of those "innocent civilians" killled in Operation Cast Lead were military age males.

 

[WildCat]

This is why I hate Israel/Palestine discussions. I'm not getting into how the Norwegian media is extensively covering just this, but...

...how exactly do you propose we go to war against someone without terrifying their civilian populace? Has there been a single invasion or bombing in history where the civilians (or soldiers) remained perfectly calm?

Ya. This is why I have him on ignore (checked the thread while off-line).

Of course those things are true, but we have to hold Israel to a double higher standard because, well just because. And of course Israel has the right to defend itself, it's just that everything they do is wrong. And all atrocities by Palestinians are no big deal because they're outgunned fighting a superior foe so they can be excused for hiding behind civilians when they fight. And sure Hamas is a genocidal terrorist group that has vowed to kill all the Jews, but likewise no biggie because they only have the means to kill a few dozen Jews every year, so they're still good guys. And none of this, of course, has anything to do with anti-semitism, no way!