Marijuana and states rights

[WildCat]

The real threat to these initiatives, IMHO, is from Congress. They could, for example, deny federal highway funds to states which have legalized marijuana.

 

[foxholeatheist]

I don't know the exact code but I was a volunteer to collect signatures to have a recreational and medical marijuana measure on the 2012 ballot in Missouri (didn't make it... this year) and that ballot initiative would have amended the state constitution so that local law enforcement would/could not cooperate with the feds.

I don't know how that would have worked in real life but I have a hard time imagining the feds waiting to bust a kid with a joint without local law enforcement help.

 

[WildCat]

You could be right but I seem to remember seeing that most "medical" marijuana was taxed. I'll have to look into it. As to your other point you are just wrong. Pot can be really cheap to produce, as cheap as coffee, and the tax on it could be 2 or 300% and it would still be cheaper then street prices.

Washington thinks they'll get billions from it. They'd have to keep prices close to the current black market price to realize that kind of revenue, and it simply isn't going to happen. People aren't going to pay $500 for a product that they could grow on a single plant in a sunny window.

People find ways around taxes if they're too high. The last time Cook County IL raised tobacco taxes revenue fell tens of milliopns of dollars, because people simply bought their cigarettes elsewhere. Not that they learned anything, they just raised it another $1 per pack. It's as if they don't know Indiana is right next door...

 

[foxholeatheist]

A single plant on a sunny window may yield a few grams, possibly an ounce about once a year, depending on the strain. If you had Joe Sixpack that liked to come home from work, unwind at the end of the day with a joint and some cartoons he could easily burn through that amount in a little less than a week.

Good yield and quality generally require very specialized lights, ferts, carbon scrubbers, air filtration, watering systems, and set up (might I add, this may also be a boon to small business specifically and more importantly openly catering to Marijuana growers). Not to mention harvest is not picnic either, many growers find it the most tedious time of the cycle. From cutting the plant to having quality smokeable product it requires a few more weeks of curing. From bean to bud even with the fastest flowering strain and growing perpetual harvest you are looking at 4-6 weeks between harvests for most growers. Not to mention the increase in electric bills that would result.

It can grow like a weed but the dirt crap that the kids smoke and the quality grown bud is the difference between home brewed yeast and grape juice wine and a good hearty Bordeaux.

Do most drinkers brew or distill their own in the US to avoid the taxes? No, because it is lots of messy and complicated work.

I reckon that hardly any would. You can also grow better tasting lettuce on your window sill but how many do that in proportion to the number that just buy it from the supermarket?

I think the tax boon could be huge. You could divert law enforcement resources away from simple pot smokers and release non-violent Marijuana only offenders freeing up even more public funds. There could be Marijuana Dutch style coffee shops and the owners will need state licenses. The production, packaging, distribution, marketing, and retail and service aspects could also all bring in tax revenue and boost those businesses along the way.

I think you are underestimating the potential and also the work that is required that most won't do to produce quality marijuana.

 

[bozothedeathmachine]

They could, for example, deny federal highway funds to states which have legalized marijuana.

That's what happened in the case of the Texas open container law.

 

[varwoche]

I think maybe he's just not very interested in it, and doesn't want to do anything controversial about it. So he left in place a Bush appointee at the DEA and left it to her to run his drug policy.

First, the administration announced they were laying off medical marijuana enforcement. Then a year or so later came the crackdown, presumably in response to things getting out of control.

Isn't pot already legal in BC?

A common misconception.

Good yield and quality generally require very specialized lights, ferts, carbon scrubbers, air filtration, watering systems, and set up (might I add, this may also be a boon to small business specifically and more importantly openly catering to Marijuana growers). Not to mention harvest is not picnic either, many growers find it the most tedious time of the cycle. From cutting the plant to having quality smokeable product it requires a few more weeks of curing. From bean to bud even with the fastest flowering strain and growing perpetual harvest you are looking at 4-6 weeks between harvests for most growers. Not to mention the increase in electric bills that would result.

Most of the hassles are due to the illegality. Growing outdoors is a different story. If you can grow a tomato, you can grow high quality weed -- it's easy.

 

[Tony]

People can only consume so much of it (a tiny fraction of what tobacco users consume)

Speak for yourself.

 

[foxholeatheist]

Most of the hassles are due to the illegality. Growing outdoors is a different story. If you can grow a tomato, you can grow high quality weed -- it's easy.

I wouldn't say easy. Fert lock out and PH issues are tougher to address in an outdoor grow. Pests and rippers are a huge hassle as well. Not every climate is suitable for every strain of Cannabis. A bad storm can wipe out a crop or damage it to the point that come harvest time your yields are substantially affected. Also you would get only one harvest per year. Sure, a big harvest but successful indoor SCROG growers can produce a perpetual harvest all year long.

But I imagine if Marijuana were to be grown on a commercial scale for legal distribution it would be outdoors like any crop is now.

 

[ravdin]

Marijuana is still illegal under federal law. But the FBI isn’t going to be going after people with the small amounts of pot allowed by the state laws. If you get arrested by the FBI for some crime and happen to have some pot on you, they may add that charge, but then you probably have bigger issues to deal with anyway.

One major issue would probably be carrying pot when flying within the state. TSA is federal and will search for drugs and if you are caught you could well be arrested under federal law.

The feds, or even the state, could crack down on growers and distributors. Unless you are growing your own, you are getting it from somebody who has more than an once and could be busted even under state law.

People even in the Obama administration have vowed to crack down on marijuana, but it hasn’t happened.

Federal law has no provision for “medical” marijuana. Marijuana is illegal at the federal level, period. But California has had medical marijuana and marijuana growers and distributors operating for years and the feds haven’t done anything.

Growers and distributors run a risk, but the feds haven’t done much so far. People possessing while encountering federal official, such as air travel, could run into trouble. Average joe smoker doesn’t have much to worry about.

Puppycow beat me to it, but that's just not accurate. Even Nancy Pelosi blasted the Obama administration for the crackdowns.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Pelosi-blasts-crackdown-on-medical-marijuana-3533638.php

 

[CORed]

First, the administration announced they were laying off medical marijuana enforcement. Then a year or so later came the crackdown, presumably in response to things getting out of control.

A common misconception.

Most of the hassles are due to the illegality. Growing outdoors is a different story. If you can grow a tomato, you can grow high quality weed -- it's easy.

The Colorado law states that growing for individual consumption has to be in an "enclosed, locked" space. I'm not sure whether this would be interpreted to mean in a building, or whether a fence and a locked gate would qualify. Individual growing is also limited to 6 plants, with no more than three mature flowering plants. I don't know whether a daily user could support his consumption with this much or not.

 

[CORed]

Marijuana is still illegal under federal law. But the FBI isn’t going to be going after people with the small amounts of pot allowed by the state laws. If you get arrested by the FBI for some crime and happen to have some pot on you, they may add that charge, but then you probably have bigger issues to deal with anyway.

One major issue would probably be carrying pot when flying within the state. TSA is federal and will search for drugs and if you are caught you could well be arrested under federal law.

The feds, or even the state, could crack down on growers and distributors. Unless you are growing your own, you are getting it from somebody who has more than an once and could be busted even under state law.

People even in the Obama administration have vowed to crack down on marijuana, but it hasn’t happened.

Federal law has no provision for “medical” marijuana. Marijuana is illegal at the federal level, period. But California has had medical marijuana and marijuana growers and distributors operating for years and the feds haven’t done anything.

Growers and distributors run a risk, but the feds haven’t done much so far. People possessing while encountering federal official, such as air travel, could run into trouble. Average joe smoker doesn’t have much to worry about.

The Colorado law mandates licensing of legal growers, manufacturers and retailers, and allows for taxation of them. Whether the federal government allows that to happen remains to be seen. However, I'm pretty sure that the provisions legalizing possession of less than an ounce and growing of up to six plants by individuals will stand at the state level. In Colorado, I would expect quite a bit of a gray market transferring "medical" marijuana to recreational users to develop (not that it doesn't happen already), unless the feds decide to shut medical marijuana down. Of course, a lot of recreational users have already gotten medical marijuana cards.

Another possible risk for individual users would be on federal land (National Parks, National Forests and BLM land). Federal rangers are pretty few and far between on Forest Service and BLM land, but more plentiful in the National Parks. There are also Federal Protective Service police officers on the Denver Federal Center where I work. I'm sure that any of these would cite or arrest you if you were too obvious about your smoking. While I don't expect Park Rangers to make a massive enforcement effort, users would be wise to exercise some discretion in the National Parks, and on any federal installation.

Also, the Colorado law allows for restrictions on driving under the influence of Marijuana, so smoking in the car could still be risky.

At this point, I think the Obama administration is still trying to figure out how they will respond to the whole thing. I don't think most of the politicians at either the state or federal level really expected it to pass.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The Colorado law mandates licensing of legal growers, manufacturers and retailers, and allows for taxation of them. Whether the federal government allows that to happen remains to be seen. However, I'm pretty sure that the provisions legalizing possession of less than an ounce and growing of up to six plants by individuals will stand at the state level.

I wouldn't want to be the first guy to plant 100 acres of pot.

 

[Ambrosia]

At this point, I think the Obama administration is still trying to figure out how they will respond to the whole thing. I don't think most of the politicians at either the state or federal level really expected it to pass.

Now that these states have passed these laws I don't see how the federal government can squash them. (I know they could kill them if they want to but I'm not sure they would want to)

These laws were put onto a ballot and voted for by a majority of an electorate.

If politicians decide there are votes in it rather than the thought of being "soft on drugs" automatically meaning the issue never really gets any airtime we might yet see politicians from major parties campaigning on this issue.

It will generate significant tax revenue, take a bunch of monies out of the black market and save the public purse a fortune in enforcement costs.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I wouldn't want to be the first guy to plant 100 acres of pot.

Me neither. On the other hand, the big risk comes with a chance at the biggest payoff. If you wait until it's safe, by then it'll be a lot less profitable. I expect there will be enough people willing to be that first guy.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Me neither. On the other hand, the big risk comes with a chance at the biggest payoff. If you wait until it's safe, by then it'll be a lot less profitable. I expect there will be enough people willing to be that first guy.

They better have good attorneys who practice in Federal court.

 

[foxholeatheist]

Me neither. On the other hand, the big risk comes with a chance at the biggest payoff. If you wait until it's safe, by then it'll be a lot less profitable. I expect there will be enough people willing to be that first guy.

Look at the Mexican cartels: Members end up brutally murdered and dumped across the cities and still there are lines of young men waiting to take their place just because there is so much money to be made.

The 6 plant limit is intriguing. I think it is possible for a casual smoker to grow a steady supply from just 3 mature plants. But it would take an experienced growing familiar with certain growing techniques. Lame and this stipulation should change.

I have a feeling not everyone growing would also be smoking. But it would not be easy to maintain a steady supply from just 3 mature plants. What do they define as a mature plant? A plant put into flower? A sexed plant ready for flower? A plant that is into it's vegetative state?

Less than an ounce is rather lame too. Is that the amount you can have at any time even in your home? Does curing marijuana count? What about post harvest? What about the trim that contains lots of THC and can be made into food products or hash? Does that count? Are they measuring an ounce of marijuana brownies or the actual active substance in the brownies?

 

[Dog Town]

That's what happened in the case of the Texas open container law.

Yes, but it was the 21 drinking age. All over the country. I think LA. finally went in.

yep

In 1987 the law was first changed to raise the age to 21 to SELL alcohol to. But, under the Napoleonic Code that rules Louisiana, it still allowed those who were 18 to consume it. Basically, this meant that anyone who was 18 could still drink, and buy...and they did. It was only illegal to sell alcohol to those who were 18 to 20 years old. The double standard allowed a loophole for which no one was ever prosecuted.

It wasn't until 1996, when the Federal Government threatened to withhold money for highway construction that the law was changed and the minimum age was raised to 21 across the board for buying, consuming and selling.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_Louisiana_raise_legal_drinking_age_from_18_to_21

 

[Rebel Yellow]

There could be a big collation for the legalization of marijuana: liberals, libertarians, fiscal conservatives, etc. Its just too bad that most only tend to be when it favors them or is about an issue they like. Its about time we realized that we are wasting a lot of money on nothing.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I wouldn't say easy. Fert lock out and PH issues are tougher to address in an outdoor grow. Pests and rippers are a huge hassle as well. Not every climate is suitable for every strain of Cannabis. A bad storm can wipe out a crop or damage it to the point that come harvest time your yields are substantially affected. Also you would get only one harvest per year. Sure, a big harvest but successful indoor SCROG growers can produce a perpetual harvest all year long.

But I imagine if Marijuana were to be grown on a commercial scale for legal distribution it would be outdoors like any crop is now.

I don't think people realize the difference between decent $50-$60 dollar an ounce cannabis and the high grade $20 dollar a gram cannabis.

If you want to grow your own, you can grow the domestic quality cannabis that is relatively easy if you know how to maintain a plant and keep the males out of your crop. But to grow the strains people are getting used to now from dispensaries, it is by no means easy to do outside.

I can't count the number of times I've seen people take decent high grade seeds and end up with nothing but a high quality domestic strain, or someone who raised through a lot of effort some "designer" quality cannabis but cured it wrong or harvested it too early.

 

[bozothedeathmachine]

Yes, but it was the 21 drinking age. All over the country. I think LA. finally went in.

Also definitely true. I'm from Louisiana and happen to be at the age that I was able to have my first legal beer twice: when I was 18 in 1993, then again when I was 21 in '96.