• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Julian Assange: rapist or not?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh really?
Yes.



Maybe the wording "US-favourable" or "US-prone", "US-friendly" would be more acceptable from you?
No, they wouldn't. You're trying to imply US domination, not merely bias.

I am not making it a case.
To be noted that I am not talking about the management of the forum, but about the opinions of most people who post here who have been brought up in a Western environment and have Western-directed bias as probably have not read much about news sources from other countries.
What are you basing that assumption on? Where did you obtain information about the media choices of members of this forum?

In Iranian forums I would the same "Iran-favourable" attitude.
In Japanese forums, the same.
People who believe their governments is good and the others are bad are everywhere, regardless of nationality.
That is not the prevailing attitude of this forum. Spend five minutes in the USA politics forum, especially on election day.

They are called "the stupid majority", and it comprises most of the people living in the world.
These sorts of statements never include the person making the statement, oddly.

This is why war happens.
Wrong.

Not speaking about anyone in particular. (to be noted)
I should hope not.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
I really saw big crowds of American people asking for Sgt. Wutherich to be brought to prison for life for his crimes in Haditha.
Appeal to ridicule, composition fallacy.

Absolutely.
I do agree with this.
How many times have you asked for former President Bush or Henry Kissinger to be brought to trial for war crimes (or something close to that)?
Loyalty test, dodge. My point is that lots of people here don't have the sort of blind US obedience you ascribe to them.

Me, the President of Brazil, the President of Argentina and another half dozen of Head of State who showed their support to Ecuador are all conspiracy theorists.
So, nine people? Do most of their people support their leaders blindly? Or is it just the Japanese, Iranians, and Americans who have a "stupid majority"?

ADDED
The BBC's Will Grant said it was a symbolic but important show of unity in a region which considers the UK government's approach over Mr Assange to have been colonialist and threatening.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19314618

Strangely enough, no Head of State in South America has condemned Ecuador` stance of giving protection to a raper.
Why is that?
Alleged rapist. I thought you were on his side.

Maybe they live in a different world?
Maybe they do not care about rape?
Or maybe they do not have US-bias?
Have any heads of state in the world condemned such stances?

I like how you snipped out the part of my post saying that Assange's defenders are reluctant to discuss the actual case, then chose to discuss the events surrounding the case and trying Appeal to Authority.
 
Assange has not been proven guilty of rape. Allegations of sexual assault were made against him which the Swedish Ministry of Justice (I think? My Scandinavian politics is lacking) deemed worthy of pursuit. It is probably a coincidence that it happened at the same time as the wikileaks scandal broke open, but only in the way that lots of coincidences happen. If Julian Assange were not the founder of wikileaks, he would not be being given the benefit of the doubt that a lot of people are giving him, nor would his paranoid ramblings be taken seriously.

I remain dubious that there is anything the United States could charge him under, though I've been assured that there are options. Nevertheless, I don't think that a judge or jury, acting according to the law and constitution, could find an Australian citizen guilty of any crimes against the United States, as he had no claims of either loyalty or oath to this country. The Department of Justice (and it would be the DoJ, the idea that a military tribunal would be held for Assange is laughable) may disagree on that score, but if they did, then they'd probably have expressed interest in Assange.

It would seem likely that as far as the American Government is concerned, the criminal is Bradley Manning, who allegedly provided state secrets to a foreign organization without authorization, (allegedly) breaking his oath of service to the constitution and God alone knows how many other laws. As he is in custody, Assange would probably be unnecessary for the government's aims, which are, essentially, to punish traitors (and that's the word for what Bradley Manning would be if he is found guilty. A traitor. Harsh, but words do have meanings) and prevent a repetition. Out here in the civilian world, we may not know everything the military is doing to make sure that this doesn't happen again, and we probably don't need to know.

Now. Julian Assange has been accused of rape. It has not been proven, he is entitled to a reasonable doubt, and the Swedish law on the subject is a bit more complicated than the ones in common law countries would be. So, he is not necessarily a rapist, and should actually be assumed not to be one. What he is, though, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is a person who broke the terms of his bail and refused to obey a court order. These are actual crimes. And they're not crimes drummed up to attack Julian Assange, or crimes that are in contravention of global legal standards, and no one's writing new laws to try him under after the fact. Nor is there a vast conspiracy against him to deny him his rights. He has been offered every right he is entitled to.

So, that's the end of the Mandela, Dreyfus and Solzhenitsyn comparisons, I hope. As for Gandhi... Gandhi was imprisoned for breaking a law that would have been unconstitutional within the metropolitan area of the empire just on its face, and he, amazingly, allowed himself to be imprisoned and go through the legal system. So, that's also out.

And I don't know what they're teaching you, but Galileo? Really? Galileo was tried by the Roman Inquisition for a crime that he confessed to committing. His trial was reasonably fair by the standards of the times, his sentence was light and commuted the next day, and more pertinently, he also stood trial. He didn't decide to run away to the Swiss embassy in Rome and mock the police.

Let's see... the Dalai Lama comparison is beyond farce. Trotsky? Yes, that's a flattering comparison. Trotsky was a brutal mass-murderer who was outmaneuvered by a psychotic monster, fled to Mexico rather than use his power-base to fight back, and wound up tried in absentia, convicted, and then assassinated. So... I'm not sure what we're going with here. Are we saying Julian Assange is a mass-murderer? Or that the people currently running wikileaks are psychopaths plotting his death and the death of everyone else who may stand in their way of absolute power over a website? Help me out here.
 
Last edited:
Allegations of sexual assault were made against him which the Swedish Ministry of Justice (I think? My Scandinavian politics is lacking) deemed worthy of pursuit.
Well, basically the two women went to the police and the police brought in the Swedish Prosecution Authority. As far as I know, the ministry of justice is not involved, except of course that both the Prosecution Authority and the Police are within that departments area of responsibility.
 
If Julian Assange were not the founder of wikileaks, he would not be being given the benefit of the doubt that a lot of people are giving him, nor would his paranoid ramblings be taken seriously.

None of us are likely to have ever heard of him either. I have no evidence of this, its just my opinion.

.The Department of Justice (and it would be the DoJ, the idea that a military tribunal would be held for Assange is laughable) may disagree on that score, but if they did, then they'd probably have expressed interest in Assange.

It hasn't prevented them from holding dozens of foreign nationals (also not sworn any allegiance to the US) at Gitmo, without charging them. Also, it didn't stop the military/CIA from kidnapping some of them (its called extraordinary rendition) perhaps without having publicly expressed any interest in them before they did so. I need not supply any evidence of this as its public knowledge. You can Google Khalid El-Masri for yourself!
 
I'll tell you what folks, I have presented nothing in this thread as fact!
Facts aren't the only things that can be questioned or discussed, you know.

What I have done is express an OPINION, which, the last time I heard, I am entitled to do.
You're also entitled to question other members about their opinions, and to challenge them to explain the evidence and reasoning their opinions are based on. That's kind of the whole point of the JREF forums, after all.

What did you expect, that you would post your opinions about this controversy, and everybody else would just say "cool story, bro", and move on? Is that the response you would prefer?

When I present something as a fact, I will back it up with evidence, but when I express an opinion I will not feel any compulsion to back that up.
That's unfortunate; I think that most people who believe they've arrived at a reasonable conclusion are ready and able to back it up when asked about it.

I joined this forum to LEARN; recommended by a couple of users at Apollohoax/Clavius, but it seems that some of you are more interested in dictating, berating and brow-beating than you are in teaching.

I am beginning to regret my decision to join. So be it!
I'm sorry you feel that way. Your friends should have warned you that the JREF forums are a much more rough-and-tumble community than Apollohoax.

Members here will gleefully challenge any opinion they believe is based on faulty reasoning or ignorance of facts. And they very often won't rise to Apollohoax's standard of civility when doing so.

But usually the level of civility depends on the context and content of the debate. When you questioned my opinion regarding people who try to evade extradition, I thought your comments were disingenuous at best, and a gesture of bad faith at worse. Instead of getting all huffy at you for daring to question my opinion, I answered your questions and refuted your insinuations.

I think the static you're getting from some of the other participants in this thread is because so far your opinions seem to be based on faulty reasoning, and on ignorance of the facts and points that have been discussed at length and repeatedly in this thread already. I'm sure you can understand how that would be frustrating to people who have been participating in this thread for a while already.

Also, while you do sometimes present your opinions as questions, they seem to be rhetorical, rather than actually seeking an answer. After all, if you came here to learn, you could do a lot worse than read the thread so far, and then ask any questions that haven't already been answered.

For example, the question of Assange's offer to be questioned by the Swedish authorities has been addressed several times already. Here's the summary: The Swedes have asserted that at this point in this investigation, it is not practical to question Assange in the UK. Among other things, they have reached the stage where any questioning will most likely be promptly followed by indictment, and for that they need Assange in Sweden. In addition, the Swedish justice system does not serve at the convenience of Julian Assange, and it is unreasonable for him to insist on being questioned in a time and place of his choosing. The reasons given for why he should be afforded this convenience are, quite frankly, implausible; several courts in both Sweden and the UK have found those reasons less than compelling, and so they have ordered and upheld his extradition in accordance with the law.

Now that you have learned this, does it change your opinion at all? Why or why not?

Others here may be willing to point you to some relevant posts on that subject, or even re-post their previous, more detailed contributions. If you have questions about specific details, or if you have any information to contribute, those always help.

Another problem is that your opinions--like the question I just answered above--often seem to echo the conspiracy theory tropes that are common in this thread. For example, your opinions about the treatment of POWs by the US government, etc. are irrelevant to this thread, unless you are advancing a conspiracy theory that links those things to the Swedish rape case against Assange. As I'm sure you know, CT tropes attract prompt ire on Apollohoax. The same is true here at the JREF forums, but with notably less civility.

In short, your opinions are being challenged in this thread because they seem to be weakly reasoned, they echo CT tropes, and they raise points that have already been discussed at length in this thread (which makes it seem like you haven't even bothered to read the thread).

I hope this helps, and that you decide to stick around.
 
It hasn't prevented them from holding dozens of foreign nationals (also not sworn any allegiance to the US) at Gitmo, without charging them. Also, it didn't stop the military/CIA from kidnapping some of them (its called extraordinary rendition) perhaps without having publicly expressed any interest in them before they did so. I need not supply any evidence of this as its public knowledge. You can Google Khalid El-Masri for yourself!

What does any of this have to do with the Swedish rape case against Assange?

Did you know that Assange traveled to Sweden after the Manning Affair? Even as Bradley Manning was being harshly treated by the US government, Julian Assange was inquiring about establishing residency in Sweden. This is hardly the behavior of someone who thinks Sweden is conspiring with the US to kidnap him and send him away to Gitmo (or anywhere else).

Now that you have learned this, has your opinion changed? Why or why not?
 
theprestige

I have no real opinion about whether Assange actually committed these rapes or not, but I do believe in the "presumption of innocence", he should not be tarred with the "rapist" brush unless and until he has been found guilty of rape.

I also believe that any man who "knows" that he has done no wrong, and who does not believe they will get a fair trial, should not be presumed automatically guilty if they flee the jurisdiction. I do not presume to know what goes on in the mind of Assange, although I can guess what he might be thinking.

I relate Gitmo to the current situation re WikiLeaks and Assange only in so far as what Assange might be thinking - - that the US are out to get him. It may not be true, but I can understand why he might fear it. He has probably heard of Khalid El-Masri too!

And yes, I have learned quite a bit in the short time I have been here. One of the things I have learned is that I should stick to what really interests me; astronomy, sciences, technology etc, and stay out of threads with social or political discussions.
 
Last edited:
theprestige

I have no real opinion about whether Assange actually committed these rapes or not, but I do believe in the "presumption of innocence", he should not be tarred with the "rapist" brush unless and until he has been found guilty of rape.
Agreed, with the caveat that I have a bias against Assange, so I might believe all sorts of horrible things about him. But I am perfectly content that the state should not tar him with the "rapist" brush, unless he as been found guilty according to due legal process.

A process which he is incidentally subverting, by avoiding extradition.

I also believe that any man who "knows" that he has done no wrong, and who does not believe they will get a fair trial, should not be presumed automatically guilty if they flee the jurisdiction. I do not presume to know what goes on in the mind of Assange, although I can guess what he might be thinking.
Fair enough. But please note that nobody is assuming he is automatically guilty of rape, because he has fled the jurisdiction. We are assuming he is automatically guilty of fleeing the jurisdiction. And this is pretty obviously an objectively true matter of fact.

I think that on the question of whether Assange has some noble purpose that justifies fleeing the jurisdiction, you will get a resounding "no!" from many members here. The exception would mainly be the several conspiracy theorists who are regulars here (or are swiftly becoming regulars). The other exception appears to be you: You're avoiding outright conspiracy theorizing, but your speculation about Assange's mindset and motives seems to trend towards his being innocent, and him sincerely believing that he's the victim of a conspiracy by Sweden and the US to persecute him. But as you say, you're entitled to your opinion.

My opinion (you may find several similar ones if you read this thread) is that the more likely explanation is that Assange has good reason to think these women have legitimate complaints about his behavior as a lover, and that he's cynically promoting the conspiracy theory to his supporters.

But in reality, this isn't a political crime we're discussing. He's not a dissident fleeing persecution by a tyrannical regime. So far there have been no facts presented, to support that opinion. So far there have been no facts presented, linking the allegations of rape to his work with Wikileaks. We're discussing a sex crime, and Assange is fleeing from Swedish justice.

I don't presume to know what's inside Assange's head either, but from here on the outside, the facts all seem to support one opinion and not another.

I relate Gitmo to the current situation re WikiLeaks and Assange only in so far as what Assange might be thinking - - that the US are out to get him. It may not be true, but I can understand why he might fear it. He has probably heard of Khalid El-Masri too!
Well, sure. He didn't seem to be too worried about being kidnapped in Sweden until after he was accused of sex crimes there. He didn't seem to be too worried about being kidnapped in the UK, until after they agreed to extradite him to Sweden to face sex crimes charges. What's the point of speculation about what he's thinking?

And yes, I have learned quite a bit in the short time I have been here. One of the things I have learned is that I should stick to what really interests me; astronomy, sciences, technology etc, and stay out of threads with social or political discussions.
That is some pretty good advice; if only I could follow it :)
 
theprestige

I have no real opinion about whether Assange actually committed these rapes or not, but I do believe in the "presumption of innocence", he should not be tarred with the "rapist" brush unless and until he has been found guilty of rape.

I also believe that any man who "knows" that he has done no wrong, and who does not believe they will get a fair trial, should not be presumed automatically guilty if they flee the jurisdiction. I do not presume to know what goes on in the mind of Assange, although I can guess what he might be thinking.

I relate Gitmo to the current situation re WikiLeaks and Assange only in so far as what Assange might be thinking - - that the US are out to get him. It may not be true, but I can understand why he might fear it. He has probably heard of Khalid El-Masri too!

And yes, I have learned quite a bit in the short time I have been here. One of the things I have learned is that I should stick to what really interests me; astronomy, sciences, technology etc, and stay out of threads with social or political discussions.

Sounds like your channeling JA.
 
No, they wouldn't. You're trying to imply US domination, not merely bias.

The US Goverment is probably trying to do that, fortunately enough we live in the 2010s and even some small South American country can do something

What are you basing that assumption on? Where did you obtain information about the media choices of members of this forum?

On the fact that, while most South American and European media that I currently read seem to have a neutral or pro-Assange stance, members of this forum tend to consider the behaviour of the UK authorities correct.
Without in my opinion being able to give much evidence for this position

That is not the prevailing attitude of this forum. Spend five minutes in the USA politics forum, especially on election day.

Non sequitur

These sorts of statements never include the person making the statement, oddly.

As the word "majority" implies that there is also a "minority"


Unfortunately enough, war do happen, and for the precise reason in my opinion that people swallow their own Government propaganda as I think you are doing, if I may..

Appeal to ridicule, composition fallacy.

You did not consider what I wrote.

Loyalty test, dodge. My point is that lots of people here don't have the sort of blind US obedience you ascribe to them.

I am not talking about US obedience.
I am talking about obedience to what your own government and media tell you.
In other words, people like you born in Japan would not consider Japanese crimes during WWII so bad or so unneccessary.

So, nine people? Do most of their people support their leaders blindly?

More or less.
You are getting it.
And it is a common behaviour you see all around the world.
Example: go to speak to an Iranian and tell him that Israeli people need to have their own country as Iranians also have, and he/she will tell you (90% probability) that Zionists are the scum of the world.
And they tell you this as they have been educated by their own government.

But in this case, you should at least understand that it is not one or few loonies that claim that Ecuador did the right thing to protect Assange, but head of states.
Thing that it is more or less ignored by readers of this forum, the reason why is pretty obvious.

Alleged rapist. I thought you were on his side.

You thought wrong.
I think that if he really happen to have raped one woman, he should pay for that.

Have any heads of state in the world condemned such stances?

They all expressed support for Ecuador, which is meaningful.
Unless you wear very thick glasses, if I may.

I like how you snipped out the part of my post saying that Assange's defenders are reluctant to discuss the actual case, then chose to discuss the events surrounding the case and trying Appeal to Authority.

I do not agree that "Assange's defenders are reluctant to discuss the actual case, then chose to discuss the events surrounding the case and trying Appeal to Authority"
 
Last edited:
The US Goverment is probably trying to do that, fortunately enough we live in the 2010s and even some small South American country can do something
...
I was going to try to continue to logically debate you, but you've repeatedly used the exact same "ignore when I'm proven wrong and move the goalposts" many conspiracy theorists do. I mean, you responded to me going "Your assertion about this forum is wrong, and you can go here to prove it" as a "non sequitur". I don't think any further debate with you on my part would be productive.
 
On the fact that, while most South American and European media that I currently read seem to have a neutral or pro-Assange stance, members of this forum tend to consider the behaviour of the UK authorities correct.

Specifically, which European media supports Assange after he fled to the embassy?
Seriously, I want to know. I've followed Norwegian, Swedish, and UK media on the subject.

From where I'm standing, it seems he lost the little support he had in mainstream media when he fled the EAW.
 
members of this forum tend to consider the behaviour of the UK authorities correct.
Without in my opinion being able to give much evidence for this position

This is a plain, simple and deliberate lie and I have no qualms calling it such. The nature and legal framework of the European Arrest Warrant and the degree to which it has been enforced by the UK has been gone over many times.
 
This is a plain, simple and deliberate lie and I have no qualms calling it such. The nature and legal framework of the European Arrest Warrant and the degree to which it has been enforced by the UK has been gone over many times.

And most of the readers of this forum (including you) mostly living in Western countries did not criticize and/or openly supported the case for the arrest of Assange.
Without even taking into consideration the possibility that the EWA and/or other laws may not be the crucial issue at hand and that many other matters may have influenced the case.
Which, as I said, shows quite well their bias.
Ditto.

I don't think any further debate with you on my part would be productive.

On this I fully agree.
On my side as well, despite showing tons of evidence in support of what to many people around the globe
As said before, the only good thing at the end of this debate is the conclusion that, at least, you guys can not do much harm to other people living in poorer and less fortunate countries, including the crimes that the whole Wikileaks affair exposed.
Certainly Assange may not be happy to be locked up in an embassy, but he is certainly doing much better than the South American activists who were killed by Reagan-supported death squads in the 80s.
And this is a good lead forward, if I may
 
Last edited:
And most of the readers of this forum (including you) mostly living in Western countries did not criticize and/or openly supported the case for the arrest of Assange.
Without even taking into consideration the possibility that the EWA and/or other laws may not be the crucial issue at hand and that many other matters may have influenced the case.
Which, as I said, shows quite well their bias.
Ditto.

Seems a long-winded way of saying "buy into a conspiracy theory."
 
And most of the readers of this forum (including you) mostly living in Western countries did not criticize and/or openly supported the case for the arrest of Assange.
Without even taking into consideration the possibility that the EWA and/or other laws may not be the crucial issue at hand and that many other matters may have influenced the case.
Which, as I said, shows quite well their bias.

You should try reading the thread. In reality, we tend to support the case for the arrest of Assange precisely because we've taken into consideration the possibility that many other matters may have influenced the case. And, upon considering the possibility, we find no evidence for other matters influencing the case. So we conclude, rightly, that the case has merit on the basis of the EAW, according to the evidence.

But, as always, if you have evidence that other influences are in effect, feel free to present that evidence at any time. Please note that our evidence includes things like documented facts agreed to by Assange and his lawyers. So we would expect to see your evidence include similar compelling documentation.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom