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Elbe Trackway

Alaska,

That's what keeps me interested. How this all started and why. The why: Romanticism, money, hardwired for lore, superficial linkage to Darwin or the Bible, ignorance, the ache for discovery in a routine world, susceptibility to well crafted pseudo-knowlege, the asserting of working class values, etc.?
 
jerrywayne said:
I say that, on the surface, the Bigfoot idea was not unreasonable. Why? Because it was grounded and framed as a wildlife issue. It was not advanced as within the purview of the paranormal or supernatural. Because it was/is seen as a mundane fact grounded in nature, by proponents, it is intrinsically more rational than other forms of Forteana.
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I've highlighted what I consider the most important part of your whole post. :)

People like Cotter who insist on some sort of absolute proof of BF's non-existence are missing the point. We lack absolute proof of the non-existence of lots of things, like fairies and unicorns and Russell's teapot. But sometimes, a lack of evidence can be overwhelming, and leaves no room for any rational person to consider its existence worth mentioning. BF passed this point somewhere between the 1970s and now. No scat, no bones, no hair, no fossils of predecessors, no nuthin'. In the middle of some of the most heavily studied forests in the world. The evidence for BF is exactly as strong as the existence for fairies, and no reasonable, sane person would argue that fairies exist.

Anyone who looked at or heard of the Elbe trackway and didn't start with the assumption that it was a hoax has clearly shown themselves to be unqualified to be any sort of expert at anything that can reasonably be described as science. And thus, it becomes a useful and very positive hoax.
 
Jodie said:
No Parcher, it's only stupid when you give the proponent a lot more credit for having common sense than they actually have, that is where the skeptic fails.
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True, reasonable and honest people don't expect others the be unreasonable and dishonest so they assume that the con men are really trying to discover the facts when all they're interested in is the money.

The last thing the footers want is actual proof of bigfoot because that puts an end to their game.
 
Oh yes, jerrywayne - absolutely. Along that history you have so many fascinating alleys where Jimmy Stewart smuggles a piece of a "Yeti" hand from Nepal into the USA, stolen by Peter Byrne, and hidden in the undies of Stewart's wife. (The only case of a Yeti getting his hand down the panties of a celebrity chick).

But in all of it you have deceit, fraud, manipulation - even there it is a monestary charging to see a Yeti hand they know is phony, the Nepalese government bureaucrats charging fees for Yeti Expeditions they know are phony, Byrne funding his booty trips to sample the local Nepalese women - a phony.

Others have remarked how preposterous it is to have this utter fraud Barackman expressing indignance over someone faking something. The hypocrisy of him loathing the "psychopathic expertise in lying" and saying he's a victim and so are the bigfeet. You have every psychopathic tactic of lying on Barackman's own site. It doesn't mean he is a murderer, but someone without any conscience about what he's doing.

The hoaxer in this case? Already a big "gotchya". The timeline RayG put together - way too funny. When they find the wrong people are being hoaxed suddenly they are distancing themselves from it. In five minutes with google you can dig up enough info on Elbe to dismiss it as ridiculous as a site for an undiscovered primate. He's driving his passenger car to within 50 feet or so of where this picture is taken:

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All this drivel about documenting the site with photos and all - how about showing what is to the right of the picture? This is somewhere in the vicinity of where the Nisqually River flows into Alder Lake. It gets a lot of tourism traffic, and that may be both the road, railroad, and powerline in the background.


It probably looks like, uh - Elbe:
Fore%20Elbe%20cica%20July%205%201908.jpg



Sorry! These google earth pictures are not showing up! I substituted a picture from 1908 there.


They're professional liars so of course they are not actually giving the exact location, but rather at the time their staged photo was taken, trying to make it look like wilderness. There's a train depot you can see in the picture I had trouble posting, the Elbe mall, gas station, gift shop, etc.

Elbe was a booming lumber town a hundred years ago, and the railroad arrived in 1904. Google still shows all the timber harvesting that's gone on there, but the spot they're taking this fake Elbe trackway photo is where the Mt. Raineer scenic Railroad depot is.

That's why this is already so much of a "gotchya" because look how they concealed all this pertinent information. After snapping this staged photo they hopped in their cars and drove across the street to one of the restaurants or got some chips at the gas station, maybe a beer at the tavern. And you have to wonder what their conversations were with the gas station attendant or the girl at the register. Remember they are claiming to be "researchers" so do they interview these businesses about the bigfeets walking back and forth right in front of their stores? Apparently not because these ace sleuths report that they are still waiting to interview the guy who emailed them the information.

So what was in the email? It has to be hilarious: Stop at train station on Hwy 7, park in rear, twenty paces towards water...


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That's the Hobo Inn. Someone converted some old train cars into an inn, so you can stay overnight in those little cars and watch the bigfeets parading around in the parking lot Barackman's car is parked in while he is taking the casts of tracks and posing for the staged photo.

But again, he's a victim and so are the bigfoot, victims of this malicious psychopathic liar who faked the tracks.
 
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AlaskaBushPilot said:
All this drivel about documenting the site with photos and all - how about showing what is to the right of the picture? This is somewhere in the vicinity of where the Nisqually River flows into Alder Lake. It gets a lot of tourism traffic, and that may be both the road, railroad, and powerline in the background.
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Not only are those clearly telephone poles in the background, but it looks like the region is getting cable. Those aren't just bare-minimum power-and-phone lines. (Speaking as someone who has lived in bare-minumum power-and-phone-line communities.) Actually-remote communities generally have to rely on satellite for their TV.
 
Elbe Trackway Location

This looks like the spot for the Elbe Trackway Location:

elbatrack.jpg


That whole area marked "X" is dry depending on time of year and rainfall. If you go to google history pictures and also look at photos people have uploaded that is often dry with just a little bit of water right where it is in the picture of the three hoax victims shown earlier.

You see in their pictuire the sun is in the west, so you ask where the land goes North to the road a short distance and the road goes west, northwest. This spot is the only place in the area. You can see the power lines in google, or rather their dark shadows on the road. You can see where the railroad tracks cross the road.

If you zoom in with google and look at different years, that little river pushes all kinds of trees out there, and some of them are in the background of the three hoax victims.

So if this is it then they are right behind the train yard and the hobo inn, excellent bigfoot habitat with breakfast served through 10 am. I'm happy to be corrected if they were honest and actually published their exact location. But this really seems to fit.
 
jerrywayne said:
Alaska,

That's what keeps me interested. How this all started and why. The why: Romanticism, money, hardwired for lore, superficial linkage to Darwin or the Bible, ignorance, the ache for discovery in a routine world, susceptibility to well crafted pseudo-knowlege, the asserting of working class values, etc.?
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These people are not honest people, and spend more time covering each other's "tracks" doing unethical things to each other, rather than laying down fake tracks for other footers. However, if you have that kind of mentality you aren't above hoaxing your own evidence and I know who you are, people.
 
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LTC8K6 said:
You want it to be bigfoot. Badly.
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And are hoping that a "good ol boy" was the hoaxer. A good hoaxer never confesses or sets up a sting on believers. A good hoaxer is trying to promote the Bigfoot belief hobby, not sabotage it.

Virtually all Bigfoot hoaxes are meant to promote the (continual) belief in Bigfoot - not to cause people to disbelieve.

A proper Bigfoot hoaxer does a decent job and never confesses.

BTW, IMO, the "Georgia Hoax" wasn't a Bigfoot hoax; it was a Bigfoot gag. The Georgia Boyz did not actually attempt to fool the world. They did something else. That is why I was able to find the costume immediately. They never really tried because it wasn't that kind of thing.
 
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LTC8K6 said:
Does look like the spot.
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Thanks. I scanned blogs for pictures too and it's just so clear how uniformly deceptive the "researchers" are about this, as if it didn't matter whether the tracks were in the middle of a shopping center. I am far more interested in the context than examining the prints with a microscope. Some very good discussion on that is being done by others here. I'd be driving up saying you have got to be kidding me, laughing my butt off before even looking at them.

It's hard for me to put up with reading any of it but I tried to scan quick for descriptions of the area too - same thing there. How few people have Elbe addresses - 29 I guess, as if the 4,400 to 8,400 cars per day going right by the spot don't matter, or that there are homes, acreages, and little communities all through this region. All the train passengers. The employees of the stores,etc.

Some of the people who were at the site were talking about apple trees for food - OK, those are not indigenous trees. Those would be on private property. So the owner lets bigfoot eat his apples. Another was lying about how far the road was. All of this before it was discovered who the email came from and that it was an enemy skeptic making the report.
 
Daniel Perez lists the coordinates in the September 2012 issue of Bigfoot Times at +46 degrees 46' 0.83" N -122 degrees 11' 55.63" W elevation ~1200 feet.
 
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AlaskaBushPilot said:
Thanks. I scanned blogs for pictures too and it's just so clear how uniformly deceptive the "researchers" are about this, as if it didn't matter whether the tracks were in the middle of a shopping center. I am far more interested in the context than examining the prints with a microscope. Some very good discussion on that is being done by others here. I'd be driving up saying you have got to be kidding me, laughing my butt off before even looking at them.

It's hard for me to put up with reading any of it but I tried to scan quick for descriptions of the area too - same thing there. How few people have Elbe addresses - 29 I guess, as if the 4,400 to 8,400 cars per day going right by the spot don't matter, or that there are homes, acreages, and little communities all through this region. All the train passengers. The employees of the stores,etc.

Some of the people who were at the site were talking about apple trees for food - OK, those are not indigenous trees. Those would be on private property. So the owner lets bigfoot eat his apples. Another was lying about how far the road was. All of this before it was discovered who the email came from and that it was an enemy skeptic making the report.
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LOLOLOL.......so what the hell are they complaining about? It sounds like it was there own stupidity responsible, not a hoaxer. I'm not really vested in this, but this is the kind of what I thought when I started to question things, why so little information is provided for the surrounding areas of the track ways found? So what about that one a few months ago ? Same deal?
 
As soon as I saw the pic of the guys at the site I thought "WTF! It looks like pretty damn close to civilization! How can anyone with half a functional brain believe a giant ape living over there and never being shot, roadkilled, found dead, being imaged, etc."

Then I remembered its bigfootery, the habituation claims, backyard bigfoots, etc. Sorry folks with half functional brains. I was unfair with you...
 
As to Bigfoot tracks in general, some are found in remote areas not easily accessible. The Bigfooter will argue that no hoaxer would go to such lengths to plant tracks because there is no guarantee anyone would stumble upon their hoaxing attempt and it would be a waste of time and money.

What the proponents do not consider is this: the hoaxing of tracks in remote areas is a secondary activity of the hoaxer. The hoaxer may be an outdoorsman, hunter, back country fisherman or hiker, etc. If he has the time and opportunity, and his stompers in the backpack, he may lay Bigfoot tracks for the mischief or fun of it.

As to the Elbe trackway, because of its location, we may not have a hoax but instead someone merely experimenting with fake feet, for whatever reason, and things got out of hand.

Jodie,

Concerning my comment about "working class values," I was following the lead of Joshua Blu Buhs as he presents a thesis in his Bigfoot: The Life and Times of a Legend. He argues that working class men were the first to jump on the Bigfoot bandwagon in the 1950's and 60's as a reaction to such social changes as overt consumerism (grounding society in plasticity), personality replacing character, and the culture moving away from rugged masculinity as the ideal.

Also, Blu Buhs writes this, which rings true to me: "For some, Bigfoot was also a way to assert their dignity. By claiming that they knew---from their studies, from their hunting, from their investigations---that Bigfoot existed, that the elite consensus was wrong, they made themselves feel powerful. They understood reality, its workings, better than scientists. To proclaim Bigfoot's existence was to insist upon one's dignity against a world that either denied it, or, worse, went on spinning about its axis as though dignity did not even matter, as though the world was nothing but gewgaws and shopping and TV." (p. 20)

Interestingly, Blu Buhs had an exchange with Moneymaker on a pro-Bigfoot web site. Moneymaker, of course, didn't like Blu Buhs thesis and tried to turn the tables by stating Blu Buhs must be a homosexual (he's not). Moneymaker became so abusive that the moderator pulled his plug.
 
jerrywayne said:
Jodie,

Concerning my comment about "working class values," I was following the lead of Joshua Blu Buhs as he presents a thesis in his Bigfoot: The Life and Times of a Legend. He argues that working class men were the first to jump on the Bigfoot bandwagon in the 1950's and 60's as a reaction to such social changes as overt consumerism (grounding society in plasticity), personality replacing character, and the culture moving away from rugged masculinity as the ideal.

Also, Blu Buhs writes this, which rings true to me: "For some, Bigfoot was also a way to assert their dignity. By claiming that they knew---from their studies, from their hunting, from their investigations---that Bigfoot existed, that the elite consensus was wrong, they made themselves feel powerful. They understood reality, its workings, better than scientists. To proclaim Bigfoot's existence was to insist upon one's dignity against a world that either denied it, or, worse, went on spinning about its axis as though dignity did not even matter, as though the world was nothing but gewgaws and shopping and TV." (p. 20)

Interestingly, Blu Buhs had an exchange with Moneymaker on a pro-Bigfoot web site. Moneymaker, of course, didn't like Blu Buhs thesis and tried to turn the tables by stating Blu Buhs must be a homosexual (he's not). Moneymaker became so abusive that the moderator pulled his plug.
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I've never heard of Blu Buhs, but obviously the more prominent researchers that don't really produce anything but talk a good game are sell outs if this was the impetus for even delving into the possibility in the first place. As for MM, this seems especially ironic. I see now why JREF skeptics are so interested in bigfoot, it's like the layers of an onion, as I stick around longer the layers are starting to peel away with deeper insights into the phenomena, I think bigfootery needs it's on DSM category. Looking for cryptid hominids and bigfootery are two completely different things.
 
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