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Elbe Trackway

Meh, all they can do is rant at me like a loony for calling them crazy hence proving my point for me!

and remember most of the time everything I post has a slyly humorous undertone. :D
 
StankApe said:
NO ****





IMO, A WHOLE HECK OF A LOT of active footers are suffering from some sort of mental health issues.

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okay okay, I changed it
 
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Cotter said:
I think the 'suspicious from the beginning' comment was made at or about the 5 day mark from the intial BFF post, you are the timeline guy, have you come across anything like that?
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No. The trackway was discovered on September 17th. Rick Noll's initial post was on September 18th. The first mention he makes of the word hoax was the very next day, but he uses it to say that in his opinion the tracks are not a hoax.

His next usage of the word hoax is on September 26, but he's not declaring it a hoax as much as he's stating the reason he doesn't believe it's a hoax.

Starting on September 27 & 28th Rick is using the word hoax often.

The first time Derek Randles mentions 'hoax' is September 26, and similar to Rick, on September 27 Derek starts using the word hoax often.

So no, nothing in the first 5 days, nor the first week. The first suspicions seem to surface nine days after the trackway was discovered.

Keep in mind we're not psychic, and can't record their unspoken thoughts on the matter, so they might have had doubts from day 1, they just didn't verbalize them. :boggled:

RayG
 
RayG said:
Keep in mind we're not psychic, and can't record their unspoken thoughts on the matter, so they might have had doubts from day 1, they just didn't verbalize them. :boggled:

RayG
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Rick Noll was getting bunches of high fives from the bleevers in the peanut gallery. Never once did he say, "hold on now, we have some doubts". If Noll claims, after the fact, he had doubts, well, we can dismiss that claim same as the Skookum elk arse BF cast.
 
StankApe said:
NO ****


I was basically forum stalked by an unstable woman on the B.E. forums (any post I made on ANY subject was immediately followed by a post by her chastising me. often without any regards to MY post at all). I finally had enough and complained (and I was a mod of the non-bigfoot section) and nothing happened except I got harassed by another mod for "arguing" and "causing problems" eventually I left and most of the reasonable people left with me.


IMO, A WHOLE HECK OF A LOT of active footers are suffering from some sort of mental health issues.
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You would correct: Massive insecurity in one, excessive narcissim in another, and that whole tendency to be willing to ANYTHING to protect their standing within the Chuch of the Foot and they clearly dont care about finding the truth behind any mystery, they just get off on being the big fish in a little cultish pond.

Look at much of the leadership at BFF 2.0 and you will see.
 
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RayG said:
No. The trackway was discovered on September 17th. Rick Noll's initial post was on September 18th. The first mention he makes of the word hoax was the very next day, but he uses it to say that in his opinion the tracks are not a hoax.

His next usage of the word hoax is on September 26, but he's not declaring it a hoax as much as he's stating the reason he doesn't believe it's a hoax.

Starting on September 27 & 28th Rick is using the word hoax often.

The first time Derek Randles mentions 'hoax' is September 26, and similar to Rick, on September 27 Derek starts using the word hoax often.

So no, nothing in the first 5 days, nor the first week. The first suspicions seem to surface nine days after the trackway was discovered.

Keep in mind we're not psychic, and can't record their unspoken thoughts on the matter, so they might have had doubts from day 1, they just didn't verbalize them. :boggled:

RayG
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Noll's entire claim to footer fame as an example: endorsing to this day, the skookum elk lay, and it is..... and now falling for the elbe hoax.

And yet he is "one of the most respected researchers" in footery today.


..............?
 
clayflingythingy said:
Rick Noll was getting bunches of high fives from the bleevers in the peanut gallery. Never once did he say, "hold on now, we have some doubts". If Noll claims, after the fact, he had doubts, well, we can dismiss that claim same as the Skookum elk arse BF cast.
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He is a poster child to what I was describing above, within the BFF 2.0 pantheon, Noll, the Strains, Bipto, all are among the so called "elites" who must safeguard the church in order to stay relevant, move into facebook country and you get more, the MABRC, the BFRO, and the blooger crowd all are desperate for attention and none of them give two bits of excrement about finding the truth, be it that it exists or that it doesnt.

They dont want the truth one way or the other, they would have to give their attention getting if it was found, the truth that is.
 
They must be all loving it over there big time, no evidence questions to answer, full protection from the staff, no need to prove anything to anyone, they just say what they feel and let the sheep that post there suck it all up. Throw up a few native cave paintings, an Elk butt in the mud, bloody rocks and faked foot prints. Wallah! BF is alive and thriving.

How many years has it been that people have claimed that BF is real ? Just to post a more recent time let's say since Elkanah Walkers 1840 account. It's 2012 now and nothing yet.

Still waiting Footers ~ Still Waiting.
 
I think it is the nature of the beast (pun) that drives the BF community into the hands of Nurse Ratched. After all, the phenomena on the surface looks reasonable. If we view this entire phenomena as a wildlife issue (an animal sighted, its tracks found, etc.), then the issue seems straightforward. Let's go to the woods and look for it or its signs. At this point in thought and inquiry, there is nothing overtly unreasonable about the quest. It mimics, for instance, hunting for bear or moose.

But, below the surface, the wildlife story transmutes into folklore, if not outright paranormalism. Why? Because there is nothing to find, other than more sightings and tracks. Nothing to capture or kill. To make matters worse, the lore has become so successful over the decades, the phenomena has now so increased its range that it is has become unreasonable to accept it. How can we have giant apes or immense feral humans in every state, in areas occupied by us, and yet not discovered?

I think Bigfooters realise the tension between the surface wildlife accounting and the ineffability of the phenomena at a deeper level. And it makes them grumpy.
 
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jerrywayne said:
After all, the phenomena on the surface looks reasonable.
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No, it doesn't. On the surface, it's extremely unreasonable.

One has to be intoxicated with desire to make it reasonable. And then it's only reasonable because you aren't actually working with reason.

Bigfoot is a non-starter. From the start. Non start.
 
For some reason, some skeptics think that every now and then a belief in Bigfoot isn't a stupid thing. No, it is stupid.
 
No Parcher, it's only stupid when you give the proponent a lot more credit for having common sense than they actually have, that is where the skeptic fails.
 
I have a theory about the whole bigfoot thing. Most of the people that truly believe arent that familiar with the woods and whats in it, and the sounds, the signs. It is just ignorance. Some of the more "experienced" footers know there is nothing out there, and use it to prank and create that spookey monster vibe, and sometimes even cash in on the city slickers. Most people with a decent understanding of the outdoors laugh when you mention bigfoot.

Have you noticed a certain "type" of person that say, has an habituation situation with bigfoot? I certainly have. There are those in footing that would pray on those types as well. Some of those people are the ones using their claims to get money. Some of them are getting played by suggestive behavior. The bigfoot world is an interesting one to observe, regardless of your stance. Sometimes it is mind numbing the extent that people take it though... I have often shook my head and wondered, are they really serious?

Sometimes they are... and that is the truly scary part.
 
Bigfootery doesn't exactly fit the category of being delusional in that bigfoot is not so off the wall that it couldn't ever be proven to really exist, although the probability seems extremely low that it would exist. Where it falls apart for me is the damn size of the thing and the footprint that a creature like that ought to leave on the environment. Even as a proponent I could never rationalize that part away. Here is the criteria for delusional belief:

a.) a belief held with absolute certainty
b.) opinion doesn't change despite compelling arguments or proof to the contrary.
c.) impossible falsity of the content ( ex-life after death).

I think that those that have had a one time sighting, whether they misidentified what they saw or not, who never had an interest or belief in the existence of bigfoot, or any other cryptid, prior to their sighting are the most interesting people to talk to since I don't see a predisposition there for concluding it was bigfoot as the most likely explanation.

The rest that have not been witnesses that beat the proponent drum defy logic to me, those are the ones I'm suspicious of as having ulterior motives for pursuing the topic, unfortunately, I'm not up on who has or has not had a sighting or experience that commit a lot of time and resources in pursuing research. I know Melissa Hovey hasn't, JC has, has Derek Randles ever said he has had a sighting? What about Rick Nolls? It depends on what the experience was that inspired the devotion, something running at you through the brush in the dark would not be enough for me.
 
So, it seems Cotter has left the building. His/hers "I've been to Hell, defended the faith and kept my beliefs" is over and the medal was received.

Woe to you, lowly hoaxer! Only those who belong to bigfootery's high circles are allowed to hoax, for they are the keepers of the faith, the shepperds of the people illuminated by bigfoot's light.

I mean... No conclusive, definitive, conclusive, whatever proof of PGF being a hoax and Meldrum selling hoaxed bigfoot prints casts? Lets suppose there were just hints of hoax. Presenting it all as the real deal is not ethical. Every single time one of them present PGF, casts, etc. as good evidence -even if they believe these things are real- they are not behaving in an ethical way. They are hoaxing. They are making profit out of it all, out of you believers, using things they know are not (or at least may not be) real. The ends do not justify the means, they are hoaxers, fraudsters.

Make no mistake. The Elbe trackway probably has not entered in footer lore as outsranding piece of evidence because the hoaxer is not from the inner circle of footery.
 
William Parcher said:
No, it doesn't. On the surface, it's extremely unreasonable.

One has to be intoxicated with desire to make it reasonable. And then it's only reasonable because you aren't actually working with reason.

Bigfoot is a non-starter. From the start. Non start.
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I agree with the overall thrust of your sentiments; however, I will clarify my comments.

I say that, on the surface, the Bigfoot idea was not unreasonable. Why? Because it was grounded and framed as a wildlife issue. It was not advanced as within the purview of the paranormal or supernatural. Because it was/is seen as a mundane fact grounded in nature, by proponents, it is intrinsically more rational than other forms of Forteana.

Having said that, yes, once the Bigfoot phenomena outgrew its origin as a very rare Pacific Northwest version of the Yeti and began taking up residence (in the imagination) everywhere there are woods and water (and even in some places where there are not), the saga began to look less grounded as a wildlife issue and appears more and more like a spreading folk belief. At this point in the story, I agree that you have it right: "One has to be intoxicated with desire to make it reasonable."

So the Bigfooters are left with a paradox: they have more (inconclusive) evidence and better methods, and they have convinced more people; yet they have produced no decisive evidence after all these years. (The first Bigfooters, like Green and Dahinden, where convinced that definitive proof was just right around the corner, back in the late 50's or 60's, because they thought they had identified a true wildlife issue that was susceptible to the normal avenues of verification. After years, Dahinden became disillusioned and Green simply modified his views to adapt to his core belief.) I think it is this paradox and what it implies that drive the obsessions in Bigfoot World.
 
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If you look at how the phenomenon got its start, ignorance about the Himalayas was exploited to promote the Yeti by people with monetary incentives. In that age with only a vague notion about the beast in a land far away, only decades removed from the dicovery of the Mountain Gorilla the ignorance or gullibility is excusable.

Today? Absolutely it relies upon ignorance of the woods, but ever more upon a whole host of traits antithetical to science and reason. There is far more information at the fingertips of any objective person and far more tools for investigation. Google earth alone, but the ability to drive two hours from "grueling" bigfoot shoot to the location for high resolution photos of yourself with a highway and power lines in the immediate background of your best staged and cropped shot... the ability to look up Washington State Highway counts on that Route 7 in the background of 4,400 to 8,400 per DAY on a road in existence since 1931... to see with your own eyes and understand how many cars must have passed by while a beast as large as a moose walked in the open, not just on the day of the hoax prints but over the beast's lifetime the millions of cars passing by... to marvel that it was an email from a BFF member to a fake television show actor giving notice to the event instead of a high quality photo from one of those millions of cars passing through this bigfoot habitat...

This is a phenomenon that is far more interesting than the bigfoot myth itself: the story of how people can be this stupid
 
Jodie said:
No Parcher, it's only stupid when you give the proponent a lot more credit for having common sense than they actually have, that is where the skeptic fails.
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This.
Believer googles can be very effective. Critical thinking crumbles when believer googles are used. The stupidity of bigfootery -and other woostuff as well- disappears in the mind of the beholder.
 
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