Julian Assange: rapist or not?

[John Mekki]

So you don't trust laws, but you would trust a guarantee from the government? How on earth would that be more trustworthy?

They are two different things
Think with your own head

This thread is not about Pinochet - take that to the correct thread.

Comparison are useful
Think with your own head

What? Yes, I assumed he meant what he wrote, and showed that what he wrote just doesn't make sense. I did not bring his writing to the thread, nor did I endorse it.

Not what I said
Think with your own head

Please show us those 1000 times when Sweden has extradited a person for crimes that the US has made up.

In fact, regarding the open extradition requests from the USA since 2000, Sweden has granted such extradition in the TOTAL OF CASES in which the prisoner was in Swedish territory. This is based in statistics according to Sweden's Justice Ministry (see below section "The myth on that Assange's extradition from Sweden to US is not likely")
http://ferrada-noli.blogspot.jp/2011/11/likely-swedish-extradition-of-assange.html
Think with your own head

Great, so you agree then that Craig Murrays writing is stupid.

Not what I said
Think with your own head

There are three parts to the guarantee.

1. What JA and supporters has asked for.
2. What Sweden legally can give.
3. What Sweden has said

Government of Sweden IS the entity that makes the laws in Sweden.
Saying that the Government of Sweden can not give guarantee because of Swedish laws is simply stupid
Think with your own head

So since you apparently know about it - could you tell us about the loophole?

This is now what I said. Think with your own head
Since you are "here to learn" try not to stick to what your High School teacher taught about the world and try to open your eyes.
Just a little bit.

 

[John Mekki]

All it shows is that Amnesty International does not know Swedish law.

While you know it because you read a blog in the internet.
If I may.. Try to use your own head to think. Sometimes.
Do not always think that what Fox News and CNN and your friends tell you is necessarily true.

 

[tyr_13]

While you know it because you read a blog in the internet.
If I may.. Try to use your own head to think. Sometimes.
Do not always think that what Fox News and CNN and your friends tell you is necessarily true.

'Your own head' doesn't necessarily know what Swedish law is, but Amnesty Sweden does and of course others have cited the actual laws.

 

[tsig]

They are two different things
Think with your own head


Comparison are useful
Think with your own head

Not what I said
Think with your own head


In fact, regarding the open extradition requests from the USA since 2000, Sweden has granted such extradition in the TOTAL OF CASES in which the prisoner was in Swedish territory. This is based in statistics according to Sweden's Justice Ministry (see below section "The myth on that Assange's extradition from Sweden to US is not likely")
http://ferrada-noli.blogspot.jp/2011/11/likely-swedish-extradition-of-assange.html
Think with your own head

Not what I said
Think with your own head

Government of Sweden IS the entity that makes the laws in Sweden.
Saying that the Government of Sweden can not give guarantee because of Swedish laws is simply stupid
Think with your own head


This is now what I said. Think with your own headSince you are "here to learn" try not to stick to what your High School teacher taught about the world and try to open your eyes.
Just a little bit.

This "thinking with your own head" means repeating the same catch phrase seven times and insulting other posters?

 

[BenBurch]

A friend says that rumors are being circulated on Undernet (IRC) that "Assange is near death."

I don't buy it.

 

[Noztradamus]

A friend says that rumors are being circulated on Undernet (IRC) that "Assange is near death."

I don't buy it.

According to Google it is definietly hazardous to drink the water in Ecuador.

 

[Here_to_learn]

They are two different things
Think with your own head

Comparison are useful
Think with your own head

Not what I said
Think with your own head


Think with your own head

Not what I said
Think with your own head


Think with your own head

This is now what I said. Think with your own head
Since you are "here to learn" try not to stick to what your High School teacher taught about the world and try to open your eyes.
Just a little bit.

Well, that was a clear message about the value of your arguments. But it's not my job to think about your arguments, that you will have to do yourself.

And regarding the High School teachers - well - it was quite a number of years ago, but unless I remember wrongly, that was when critical thinking and checking sources were introduced for real - but maybe you have a good reason for why I should forget about that.

Government of Sweden IS the entity that makes the laws in Sweden.
Saying that the Government of Sweden can not give guarantee because of Swedish laws is simply stupid

The laws apply to everybody, including the government.

In fact, regarding the open extradition requests from the USA since 2000, Sweden has granted such extradition in the TOTAL OF CASES in which the prisoner was in Swedish territory. This is based in statistics according to Sweden's Justice Ministry (see below section "The myth on that Assange's extradition from Sweden to US is not likely")
http://ferrada-noli.blogspot.jp/2011/11/likely-swedish-extradition-of-assange.html

And if you count those you come up to 1000? All of them for made up charges? Remember, that was your claim.

While you know it because you read a blog in the internet.
If I may.. Try to use your own head to think. Sometimes.
Do not always think that what Fox News and CNN and your friends tell you is necessarily true.

Fox News? CNN? Really? When have I used them as a source?

There is a saying in swedish "Där orden tar slut tar nävarna vid." I'm sure it's available in other languages also, although I don't know the english version.

Roughly translated - "When the words run out the fists come out". Please avoid insults and let's have a meaningful discussion.

Your second post to this forum was:

Hi!!
I am new here.
Hope to be able to make some significant contributions..

John

I'm sure that when you said "significant contributions" - your post above was not of the type you were thinking about - can we restart and discuss?

So let me say - welcome John to the thread - looking forward to your contributions, and to interesting discussions!

 

[John Mekki]

The laws apply to everybody, including the government.

Governments happens to be the ones who make the laws.
Since when governments can not give guarantees about the political activity of the country they govern on?

And if you count those you come up to 1000? All of them for made up charges? Remember, that was your claim.

When did I say that charges against Assange were made up?
Again, look at what I write.

Fox News? CNN? Really? When have I used them as a source?

You used claims made by other sources as "the Bible" without showing any individual effort to look behind your nose, if I may.
I kindly invite you again to think critically

Roughly translated - "When the words run out the fists come out". Please avoid insults and let's have a meaningful discussion.

And since when inviting people to think with their own head is an insult?

So let me say - welcome John to the thread - looking forward to your contributions, and to interesting discussions!

Me too.
But I kindly invite you again to think with your own head, and not parrot other people` s thoughts uncritically.
And this is not meant to be an insult, just a suggestion

 

[Wudang]

Governments happens to be the ones who make the laws.
Since when governments can not give guarantees about the political activity of the country they govern on?

When, as has been pointed out multiple times if you'd bothered to read them, the laws are international, such as the terms of EAW. Again.

Again, look at what I write.

We are, perhaps you could extend us the same courtesy.

 

[John Mekki]

When, as has been pointed out multiple times if you'd bothered to read them, the laws are international, such as the terms of EAW. Again.

Oh my..
I will try to explain once again.

1) Laws are NOT international, every country can decide to abide to an international law if they want to and not abide if the do not want.
An example? The NPT treaty signed by most countries but not by Israel and Pakistan, for example
2) Even if Sweden abides to the EAW, there are terms by which Assange would not be extraditable, that is, if facing life in prison/death and/or for specific charges.
Change the charges (or the name of the charges) and give him 30 years and the treaty will still be respected
3) You can just ignore treaties.
Example: Iraq war, the US should have passed by the Security Council in enforce resolution 1441 as from international law. The US decided simply to ignore the law because China, Russia and France were agains the war and this is it. Of course, you can find 12345 different excuses for this and I do not care, it is always possible to find loopholes for everything

So, why the US/UK media are not condemning the US/UK Governments because of how they are handling this case?
Because the same people who can influence the US/UK Government are the same people who own the US/UK media.
Therefore, such people in the US/UK use the US/UK media to screw up the US/UK people and make their own interests in the same way as:
Such people in China use the Chinese media to screw up Chinese people
Such people in Iran use the Iranian media to screw up Iranian people
Such people in Japan use the Japanese media to screw up Japanese people
Such people in Country X use the Xese media to screw up Xese people
And the majority of the people who are stupid and look at the TV shows instead of getting informed, they swallow it.

In order to understand and not be screwed you need to look at what people do and not what people say.
It is as simple as that.

The UK government refused the extradition of war criminal Pinochet and the UK government ten years later went as far as threatening to enter a foreign embassy to extradite a guy guilty of sex crimes.

This says it all, and if you do not understand how the world goes with this example, you are beyond hope.
Which is not an insult, just a simple statament, do not get angry

 

[Wudang]

Oh my..
I will try to explain once again.

1) Laws are NOT international, every country can decide to abide to an international law if they want to and not abide if the do not want.
An example? The NPT treaty signed by most countries but not by Israel and Pakistan, for example

Irrelevant. The UK and Sweden are both signatories to the agreement covering EAWs.

2) Even if Sweden abides to the EAW, there are terms by which Assange would not be extraditable, that is, if facing life in prison/death and/or for specific charges.
Change the charges (or the name of the charges) and give him 30 years and the treaty will still be respected

He cannot be extradited from Sweden under the rules of the EAW without UK's permission. Any half-competent lawyer would have a court order blocking it in minutes

3) You can just ignore treaties.
Example: Iraq war, the US should have passed by the Security Council in enforce resolution 1441 as from international law. The US decided simply to ignore the law because China, Russia and France were agains the war and this is it. Of course, you can find 12345 different excuses for this and I do not care, it is always possible to find loopholes for everything

So, why the US/UK media are not condemning the US/UK Governments because of how they are handling this case?

Some are. Most take the perfectly reasonable view that due process of law should take place.

Because the same people who can influence the US/UK Government are the same people who own the US/UK media.
Therefore, such people in the US/UK use the US/UK media to screw up the US/UK people and make their own interests in the same way as:
[irrelevancies removed}
And the majority of the people who are stupid and look at the TV shows instead of getting informed, they swallow it.

In order to understand and not be screwed you need to look at what people do and not what people say.
It is as simple as that.

So you'll familiarize yourself with the case and the arguments then and understand perhaps that it is due process of law that has kept Assange in the UK until he fled? If it was so easy to ignore the law and just ship him out why didn't it happen? As has been gone over many many times, it would be far easier to extradite him to the US from the UK than from Sweden.

The UK government refused the extradition of war criminal Pinochet and the UK government ten years later went as far as threatening to enter a foreign embassy to extradite a guy guilty of sex crimes.

The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed. The law changed.

This says it all, and if you do not understand how the world goes with this example, you are beyond hope.
Which is not an insult, just a simple statament, do not get angry

Ad homs rarely anger me, especially from a random troll on a forum.

 

[John Mekki]

Irrelevant. The UK and Sweden are both signatories to the agreement covering EAWs.

And so what..

He cannot be extradited from Sweden under the rules of the EAW without UK's permission.

And the UK, the puppy dog of the US, will not give the permission

Some are. Most take the perfectly reasonable view that due process of law should take place.

Most of the sources that are in the West and that you are reading. That is for sure. Go to read the news from Brazil, for example.
Go read news from Iran and they will tell you that Iran is 100% right and the US is 100% wrong.
What a surprise.

If it was so easy to ignore the law and just ship him out why didn't it happen?

Because governments need to give a glimpse of excuses to the "stupid majority", they can not screw up so openly, come on..
Iran is six month away from nukes, right?
This is why we are bullying them, not for their oil.
Well, it is 20 years that we say that they are six month away, but so what?
People are stupid (not talking about anyone in particular) and they forget that the lie has been repeated for 20 years so far.

U.S. must stop at nothing to quash Iranian nuclear threat
By Barry Rothberg|December 2, 1994
Though Iran is a signatory of the 1968 Non-Proliferation Treaty, the Iranians are continuing the Shah's efforts to build a nuclear weapon.
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/us-must-stop-nothing-quash-iranian-nuclear-threat

The law changed.

And that, with a magic trick, changed an entire country from protecting a mass murderer from extradition into forcing the extradition of a guy who did sex too rough.
Go figure..
And of course the fact that the mass murderer was incidentally a supporter of the UK foreign policy while the half-rapist was incidentally the responsible of one of the biggest leaks of confidential information in modern history is pure coincidence
Keep believing what they tell you.. please..
Keep reading and believing in fairy tales, WMDs in Iraq, Scientology and Snowhite and Iranians who want to conquer the world.
I am too tired to keep discussing further.
If you do not understand now, you will never do.
Please keep your opinions

 

[Wudang]

Why would Brazil be the go-to resource for European and Swedish law?

What does one case under one set of laws have to do with another case under a different set of laws, the latter of which has been processed in the same way for several thousand cases?

 

[JihadJane]

Re: Governments and the laws they make to keep us safe:

'Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules'

The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

 

[Wudang]

Re: Governments and the laws they make to keep us safe:

'Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules'

And if you'd like to explain why this has anything at all to do with a European Arrest Warrant that would be really helpful.

 

[Joey McGee]

"Police drag away Julian Assange supporters as they protest at US Embassy in Melbourne"

Did your heart skip a beat there? lmao

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...ssy-in-melbourne/story-e6frf7kx-1226504153967

 

[trustbutverify]

And so what..



And the UK, the puppy dog of the US, will not give the permission



Most of the sources that are in the West and that you are reading. That is for sure. Go to read the news from Brazil, for example.
Go read news from Iran and they will tell you that Iran is 100% right and the US is 100% wrong.
What a surprise.



Because governments need to give a glimpse of excuses to the "stupid majority", they can not screw up so openly, come on..
Iran is six month away from nukes, right?
This is why we are bullying them, not for their oil.
Well, it is 20 years that we say that they are six month away, but so what?
People are stupid (not talking about anyone in particular) and they forget that the lie has been repeated for 20 years so far.

U.S. must stop at nothing to quash Iranian nuclear threat
By Barry Rothberg|December 2, 1994
Though Iran is a signatory of the 1968 Non-Proliferation Treaty, the Iranians are continuing the Shah's efforts to build a nuclear weapon.
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/us-must-stop-nothing-quash-iranian-nuclear-threat



And that, with a magic trick, changed an entire country from protecting a mass murderer from extradition into forcing the extradition of a guy who did sex too rough.Go figure..
And of course the fact that the mass murderer was incidentally a supporter of the UK foreign policy while the half-rapist was incidentally the responsible of one of the biggest leaks of confidential information in modern history is pure coincidence
Keep believing what they tell you.. please..
Keep reading and believing in fairy tales, WMDs in Iraq, Scientology and Snowhite and Iranians who want to conquer the world.
I am too tired to keep discussing further.
If you do not understand now, you will never do.
Please keep your opinions

Yea, he was just a bit too rough- that's the problem. Condoms are for sissy neo-cons, not real he-man- info-warriors like Assange.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have to say how much I love it how someone can be so married to their own ideology that they have divorced themselves totally from reality.

And so what..

It seems to have totally escaped the poster here that his original argument was that these weren't International Treaties (or perhaps that some countries didn't follow treaties they were didn't sign International Treaties they hadn't signed... Yes that whole argument was confusing after all why should you have to follow a treaty you haven't actually signed and ratified?) but when it is pointed out that when it comes to extradition that what is being discussed are treaties between countries who have both (or in the case of the EAW, all) signed said treaty and ratified it into their own law, his answer is "So what?" It's like the how "I know you are but what am I?" line.

And the UK, the puppy dog of the US, will not give the permission

And yet it apparently totally escapes the poster that said "puppy dog" is not being used to extradite Assange to the US, nor that said puppy dog just recently refused to extradite a hacker to the US on health grounds, remarkably the exact same reason that the Home Secretary refused Pinochet's extradition.

Most of the sources that are in the West and that you are reading. That is for sure. Go to read the news from Brazil, for example.
Go read news from Iran and they will tell you that Iran is 100% right and the US is 100% wrong.
What a surprise.

I guess this means that one should read Iranian news to learn about Swedish law instead of reading Swedish law. Makes sense, in Bizzaro World.

Because governments need to give a glimpse of excuses to the "stupid majority", they cannot screw up so openly, come on..

Funny, in the world I live in Governments screw up all the time. If anyone wants to see how the US and their friendly governments really screw up trying to get someone they don't like, check out the latest on the Dot Com saga over here, it's hilarious, well as a spectator, I doubt Dotty is laughing about it currently though he soon could be the way the courts are going.

Iran is six month away from nukes, right?
This is why we are bullying them, not for their oil.
Well, it is 20 years that we say that they are six month away, but so what?
People are stupid (not talking about anyone in particular) and they forget that the lie has been repeated for 20 years so far.

U.S. must stop at nothing to quash Iranian nuclear threat
By Barry Rothberg|December 2, 1994
Though Iran is a signatory of the 1968 Non-Proliferation Treaty, the Iranians are continuing the Shah's efforts to build a nuclear weapon.
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/us-must-stop-nothing-quash-iranian-nuclear-threat

Yes because nothing has been done to stop or slow down Iran since 1994, such as getting Argentina to stop selling them equipment, or the Russians and Chinese to pull out of building contracts that would have seen viable reactors up and running years ago.

And that, with a magic trick, changed an entire country from protecting a mass murderer from extradition into forcing the extradition of a guy who did sex too rough.

And rewriting history fails to help either. Pinochet was protected by one person, not an entire country, and that was done because his lawyers appealed to the Home Secretary based on his declining health. Oh... who else has done that recently and succeeded? I am seriously thinking that given the statements coming out of the Ecuadorian Embassy they at least can figure out the similarities there and are busy working on their own version of the "Assange is too ill to extradite" ploy too.

Go figure..
And of course the fact that the mass murderer was incidentally a supporter of the UK foreign policy while the half-rapist was incidentally the responsible of one of the biggest leaks of confidential information in modern history is pure coincidence

Because the fact his lawyers appealed on the ground of ill health had nothing to do with it at all.

Keep believing what they tell you.. please.

Because if they tell you something the truth must be the exact opposite. everyone knows that. Hey they told me I'd paid my taxes, darn, better go pay them again.

Keep reading and believing in fairy tales, WMDs in Iraq, Scientology and Snowhite and Iranians who want to conquer the world.
I am too tired to keep discussing further.
If you do not understand now, you will never do.
Please keep your opinions

You know this is almost better than Tolkien's fantasy world. Easier to read than the Silmarillion and far less poetry than Lord of the Rings. Needs more Elves though...

 

[John Mekki]

I have to say how much I love it how someone can be so married to their own ideology that they have divorced themselves totally from reality.

Not only me.
Go to South America and you will find what about 400 million people think about the US Monroe Doctrine and about this matter of Assange.
Hey, we have 400 million psychopats here.

It seems to have totally escaped the poster here that his original argument was that these weren't International Treaties (or perhaps that some countries didn't follow treaties they were didn't sign International Treaties they hadn't signed... Yes that whole argument was confusing after all why should you have to follow a treaty you haven't actually signed and ratified?) but when it is pointed out that when it comes to extradition that what is being discussed are treaties between countries who have both (or in the case of the EAW, all) signed said treaty and ratified it into their own law, his answer is "So what?" It's like the how "I know you are but what am I?" line.

You did not read what I wrote.

And yet it apparently totally escapes the poster that said "puppy dog" is not being used to extradite Assange to the US, nor that said puppy dog just recently refused to extradite a hacker to the US on health grounds, remarkably the exact same reason that the Home Secretary refused Pinochet's extradition.

You did not bother to read what I wrote, so no point to answer you

I guess this means that one should read Iranian news to learn about Swedish law instead of reading Swedish law. Makes sense, in Bizzaro World.

I have never said that, you are making it up 100% by yourself

Funny, in the world I live in Governments screw up all the time.

Well, they try not to do it on purpose and to be singled out to the public opinion, if they can. Right?

Yes because nothing has been done to stop or slow down Iran since 1994, such as getting Argentina to stop selling them equipment, or the Russians and Chinese to pull out of building contracts that would have seen viable reactors up and running years ago.

Well, the Russians are exactly the ones who built the nuclear reactor for the Iranians.
Chinese are exactly the ones who are trying to avoid US sanctions against Iran trying to making business with them.
Brazilians are exactly the ones who voted AGAINST the US new sanctions against Iran
Again, if you think that from 1994 it was the US who stopped the bad Iranians from getting a nuke when a backward country like India got nukes in 1974, you are beyond hope and nothing can really help you.

And rewriting history fails to help either. Pinochet was protected by one person, not an entire country, and that was done because his lawyers appealed to the Home Secretary based on his declining health.

Oooooooooooooooh..
Poor poor Pinochet, that was the reason!!
He slaughtered thousands but he had declining health!!
Do I really really have to reply on this one?

Because if they tell you something the truth must be the exact opposite. everyone knows that. Hey they told me I'd paid my taxes, darn, better go pay them again.

No point to discuss since you do not understand what you guys are being told.
It is time lost.
The only good thing about all this is that Western Country people like you, fortunately not representative of all Western people, can not do much harm anymore.
Assange will not be extradited, Iran will not be bombed, South America is not governed by US-supported criminal dictators like Pinochet any more..
Your time is gone, guys
You can get your room and your place in the museum of history.
Fortunately, the US and the UK empire and their friends and their supporters are becoming history.
Good news for the rest of the world
Assange included

 

[TjW]

No point to discuss since you do not understand what you guys are being told.

If many people are having trouble understanding what you're saying, maybe the problem isn't with the many people.