Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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Well, not a lot like anyway.
I can't recall off-hand which lab did the C14 testing.
 
pakeha said:
Roger's lab was his own kitchen and the Benford/Marino lab has more to do with quantum Voids, if I've understood Benford's writings.
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-After reading that quote you provided from the Journal of Theoretics I've concluded that the image on the SoT was obviously produced with an Amega Wand.
-Unless you guys come up with a better nomination as to what sub-etc-issue to address next, I'll put forward my best case for the existence of a 21st century artefact in a 14th Century French convent.
-I'll be back after breakfast
-- Akka
 
Found, found, found!

I had the cloth dated at the University of Arizona C-14 lab. Douglas Donahue, the same scholar who tested the Shroud of Turin, dated our cloth–it came out 1st century CE, and made headlines around the world, see here and here. Although 1st century cloth has been found at Masada and in caves in the Judean Desert, nothing of this sort had ever been found in Jerusalem. Apparently that niche, sealed with a blocking stone, had a geological fissure that kept water from seeping in and rotting the material.
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http://jamestabor.com/2012/07/

Now I can have my breakfast in peace.
 
While the omelette is cooling.
...Danin and colleagues and others challenge the accuracy of the radiocarbon dating. "Three labs used the same sample from the dirtiest edge of the shroud that had been water-stained and scorched. This would produce a younger date," says Danin. The shroud may also bear biological contamination, some say. In 1993 two University of Texas at Austin microbiologists, Stephen Mattingly and Leoncio Garza-Valdes, described a "bioplastic layer" of modern bacteria and fungi within the linen fibers of the shroud, which could have thrown off the carbon-14 date.4

But the radiocarbon dating paper is impressive. A 10 x 70-mm piece from the shroud was cut from a region free of char, snipped in three and given to dating labs at the University of Arizona in Tucson, Oxford University, and the Institute fur Mittelenergiephysik in Zurich. Collaborators hailed from Columbia University and the British Museum. Controls were three samples of linen with known dates. "The region was chosen very carefully by textile experts to contain no material but shroud. The shroud is a woven piece, and one region of it is as representative of the whole as any other," explains Douglas Donahue, a professor of physics at the University of Arizona who was present at the April 21, 1988 sampling. Each lab subdivided the samples to test them repeatedly, and treated different pieces with different mechanical and chemical cleaning methods. Then each sample was examined microscopically to detect and remove contaminants.

The results date the shroud to 1260-1390 A.D., with 95 percent confidence. This corresponds to the period when the shroud's location was unknown, and is consistent with a 14th-century bishop's report that a forger had confessed.

Donahue defends the radiocarbon dating. Neither water nor burn marks would alter the date, he says, nor has Mattingly and Leoncio Garza-Valdes' "bioplastic theory" been published in a peer-reviewed journal. "The bacterial material they propose is invisible to normal human beings, including myself, is impervious to reasonable chemical treatments, and is made of only modern carbon. In order to change the radiocarbon age of the shroud from the 700 years, which we measured to 2,000 years, the shroud would need to consist of 60 percent of this bacterial substance." ...
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http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/19544/
 
pakeha said:
Well, not a lot like anyway.
I can't recall off-hand which lab did the C14 testing.
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It was tested at the AMS facility at the University of Arizona.
The Akeldama shroud was utterly unlike the Turin shroud; multiple pieces, typical materials (patchwork of simply woven linen and wool). Though to most archaeologists the shroud wasn't as interesting as the human remains founnd and the genetic analysis of them.
Of course the shroudies immediately got defensive at further evidence thei cloth is a fraud.

ETA: I should have read further in the thread.
 
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pakeha said:
Here's more:
http://www.huji.ac.il/cgi-bin/dovrut/dovrut_search_eng.pl?mesge126140517732688760

This is the final write up:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0008319

And here is the pro-authenticity proponents' reaction to the find and its reporting:
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.es/2009/12/burial-shroud-proves-turin-shroud-not.html
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I enjoyed the article from PLOS One immensely, and I can't help but think about the fascinating insights (into goings-on in the 14th century) that could be had if science was given full access to the SoT.

On the other hand, the nonsense from the bleevers is just more of the same old same old, although I have to admit that the press release from the Hebrew University played right into their hands with that silly "Burial shroud proves Turin Shroud not from 1st century C.E. Jerusalem" line.

I don't believe that's any more true than claiming that the finding of ancient Egyptian funerary boats proves that Noah's Ark is a myth, and such an august institution should have known better than to say a thing like that.
 
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catsmate1 said:
It was tested at the AMS facility at the University of Arizona.
The Akeldama shroud was utterly unlike the Turin shroud; multiple pieces, typical materials (patchwork of simply woven linen and wool). Though to most archaeologists the shroud wasn't as interesting as the human remains founnd and the genetic analysis of them.
Of course the shroudies immediately got defensive at further evidence their cloth is a fraud.
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Now those are the sort of words that Hebrew University should have used.

I wonder if they're looking for a new Press Officer.
 
O Pharaoh, your discernment is, as always, an example for us all.

I very nearly excised the silly uni media announcement, but thought it was interesting to see how media spins things out of shape, especially given that fact one can read the final write up immediately afterward.

At the time, the media jive came out a full four months before the PLOS One article and I daresay that amusing little shroudie thing is still considered the definitive rebuttal to that remarkable find.

I confess to being amused by the fact this real 1st century shroud was carbon-dated by one of the three labs that did the dating of the TS.
Incidentally, that particular lab also did the testing which demolished the bio-polymer coating argument.
 
pakeha said:
O Pharaoh, your discernment is, as always, an example for us all.

I very nearly excised the silly uni media announcement, but thought it was interesting to see how media spins things out of shape, especially given that fact one can read the final write up immediately afterward.

At the time, the media jive came out a full four months before the PLOS One article and I daresay that amusing little shroudie thing is still considered the definitive rebuttal to that remarkable find.

I confess to being amused by the fact this real 1st century shroud was carbon-dated by one of the three labs that did the dating of the TS.
Incidentally, that particular lab also did the testing which demolished the bio-polymer coating argument.
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The Arizona AMS facility is well known, has been operating for thirty years and has handled a lot of high profile samples (including the Dead Sea Scrolls) so it's not that surprising.
 
Oh, catsmate1, where did I say I was surprised?
Before this thread was started I had no idea thee was a place where C14 dating was done in AZ.
I entered this thread with nil expertise except in one, that's right one area that's been under discussion.

I've read and learned and pondered and reread and will be eternally grateful to the posters who have shared their knowledge here.
In fact, it's one of the things that most puzzles me about Jabba's posts- the lack of willingness to just plunge in and learn something new.

Anyway.
Catsmate1, I defy you to find me saying I was 'surprised' about the AZ lab being used for the honest-to-Ma'at 1st century shroud.

A pint in the Brazen Head would be a decent wager, n'est pas?
 
Those crazy Sumerians can say what they will, beer was invented to fool Sekhmet.
 
pakeha said:
Oh, catsmate1, where did I say I was surprised?
Before this thread was started I had no idea thee was a place where C14 dating was done in AZ.
I entered this thread with nil expertise except in one, that's right one area that's been under discussion.

I've read and learned and pondered and reread and will be eternally grateful to the posters who have shared their knowledge here.
In fact, it's one of the things that most puzzles me about Jabba's posts- the lack of willingness to just plunge in and learn something new.

Anyway.
Catsmate1, I defy you to find me saying I was 'surprised' about the AZ lab being used for the honest-to-Ma'at 1st century shroud.

A pint in the Brazen Head would be a decent wager, n'est pas?
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I'm sorry if I offended you, it was unintended. I accept that you didn't say you were surprised, I could have phrased my response better.
Which Brazen Head? are you in Dublin?

Akhenaten said:
I believe I'll have a pint just on account that you're usually both right.

:)
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Bit of a long trip for you............. :)

Slowvehicle said:
I'm in. Pints all 'round.
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How about some muffins?

 
catsmate1 said:
I'm sorry if I offended you, it was unintended. I accept that you didn't say you were surprised, I could have phrased my response better.
Which Brazen Head? are you in Dublin?


Bit of a long trip for you............. :)


How about some muffins? ...
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Offended?
¡Que va!
It was my heavy-handed humour-Sorry to come across as a git.:o

Anyway, I still haven't the slightest when I'll have three days free to be able to sample the beer at the Brazen Head in Dublin.

Thanks for the muffin- today I saw some at a bookshop called "gremlins".
Is it too early to start on recipes in this thread?
 
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