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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Once again a denier misses the point.

I don't think that Dr. Nick was saying that despite your rather silly need to suggest otherwise that historians acceptance of the occurrence of the Babi Yar massacre hinges upon the album.

Far from it.

You do understand History, don't you?
 
Fine, I confused the liquidation of the ghetto with the actual shooting. The story doesn't become any more believable.

Really?

Even at Babi Yar which happened in September, the narrative goes that the jews had to undress before being shot. Reason unclear.

I actually DID see the "1941" colour photos. The show a grant total of five (5!) bodies, lying in the streets of Kiev, none at Babi Yar. They show some POWs working in a ravine. They show the clothes of at most a couple of hundred people lying around. In one photo where the Germans are overseeing the POWs allegedly covering up a supersecret massacre site, two ordinary Ukrainian women can be seen casually standing around a German soldier, showing them the workers in the ravine. Frame 20 allegedly shows "Ukrainan women (in all probability) tried to learn about the fate of their relatives, who possibly resided in nearby barracks." They are at most a few tens, some of them are smiling in the picture, as is a soldier walking by. For those of us wanting to know what Nick is referring to:

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/byalbum/list00.html

That sure convinced me 33,000 people were shot at Babi Yar. :rolleyes:

Hmm, it seems as if you have yet to see the colour photos from BY itself. I'd start with this one, and then look through the whole set. I'm looking forward to your explanation of what happened to the owners of the clothes which have been abandoned in huge piles in the first-linked picture - it seems to be some distance to the Dnieper river from BY so I doubt they were just going for a swim.

Why are you so hung up on 'the narrative'? Is it because you cannot actually understand that what you are quoting are sources, testimonies, which are logically prior to any historical narrative, and have simply confused the two? Or is it that you simply cannot conceive of the possibility that some Jews might have been forced to undress at Kharkov, but the last batches were shot in a hurry/resisted/were actually partisan suspects/it was too cold by then. Did you check to see whether the witness was describing the whole of the action or part of the action - can you concede the possibility that a witness may overgeneralise or even be wrong in part rather than as a whole? Or that the photo is too blurry to make out what clothes are being worn - to me it looks like some are in their underclothes, which is also known from elsewhere (indeed there are famous photos from Liepaja, Latvia, showing victims in their underclothes).

Why are you so incapable of reasoning from the particular to the general and back again? What makes you believe that selective incredulity about a few events is enough to dispel the whole? Has that ever worked for anyone before - if not, why bother?

I wouldn't be surprised if you're unaware that the Korherr report contains a figure of 633,000 supposedly "evacuated" inside the occupied eastern territories by the RSHA. Do you need this translating for you into what it means institutionally and practically?

Of course you do. It means that if we add up the last reported bodycounts of Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D, we get a certain shortfall, and we notice that since the last reported bodycount of Einsatzgruppe C as a whole was partial, for SK4a and another commando, and fell at the end of 1941. So everything they did after that date, including Kharkov, would be part of the 633,000 figure. So would all the actions of Einsatzgruppe D in the summer and autumn of 1942. Et cetera.

The figure of 633,000 doesn't include actions of police battalions or HSSPF forces, only Einsatzgruppen actions, as it says the number is "nach den Angaben des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes".

So everything under that 633,000 figure becomes probative for everything else. Riga, Kaunas, Vilnius, the Jaeger report, Borisov, Vitebsk, Minsk, Mogilev Zhytomyr, Dnepropetrovsk, Simferopol, Poltava, Kiev and Kharkov. To name but a few places. The whole of Estonia, with its reported 900 executions of Jews out of 5,000 executions in the first year of the occupation. Et cetera.

There were 16 Sonder- and Einsatzkommandos yet you think there are issues with one of them. What evidence do you have that SK4a was really any different, or is it that you're simply cherrypicking?

Don't bother to answer. Everyone here knows you're cherrypicking, anomaly-hunting and arguing from incredulity.
 
I read something like that when I began reading the critique in your signature. I was wondering about the interpretation. I thought it was insinuated the Nazis forged letters of thousands of people to their loved ones. Now they were standing with a gun to their head, giving them a pen. From hilariously incredible to at least somewhat credible I suppose.

Ah, I see, you manage to address that, but as to this:

To start even with something as simple to a historian as a date, crickets are chirping.

To extend your analogy, this is more like the witnesses not even agreeing on the date of the robbery with the precision of a month, the amount of money stolen varying from 305 dollars to 15,000 dollars or way over 33,000 dollars, the money having been buried by the robbers or blown away on hookers or cocain, without a trace either way, without clarity that any money is missing in the first place, and the robbers having threatened with machine guns or flame throwers. I don't care whether you're convinced or not or whether you even care whether I am convinced or not. All I know is, personally, I am not convinced. Witness evidence as to whether it happened is worth only as much as the words of the witness, in this case, not worth a nickel.

You're not convinced either because you don't have the wit to follow the evidence and can't understand it, or because you are simply refusing to be convinced, and doing everything in your power to avoid accepting common-sense conclusions. But there is no confusion here, really, except your deliberate attempt to confuse yourself and thereby wash your hands of accepting one of innumerable Nazi crimes against Jews.

Kharkov was captured by the Nazis on 24 October 1941 with a fraction of its prewar Jewish population of 130,000. On 14 December 1941, the town commandant ordered the remaining Jews of Kharkov to resettle into a ghetto based in a machine tractor factory. The collaborator administration recorded how many left each city district and the numbers total up to 10,000. In this same time frame, i.e. in the context of discussing this resettlement into the ghetto, SK4a reported (1) that preparations were underway to shoot the Jews and (2) it had shot 305 Jews 'immediately'. A German witness reported the move he dated to December 15, 1941, just as stated in the Ereignismeldung. Once inside the ghetto, the Jews were guarded by Police Battalion 314 which filed a report about doing this duty until January 7 1942.

Although some moves seem to have begun already on December 26, 1941, Jews began to be taken in larger batches over a period of days beginning on January 2, 1942 to Drobitskii Yar. There they were shot, with some apparently killed in newly acquired gas vans sent to SK4a. By January 7, 1942, it was evidently nearly all over, and Police Battalion 314 ended its tour of duty guarding the ghetto. On this day, at least one witness travelled out to the site having learned of the shootings beforehand (i.e. they were ongoing) and became caught up in the event, barely escaping with her life. Some sources on the action can be found here.

A few Jews were shot later on after being exposed in hiding. By the end of January 1942, no Jews show up in the Kharkov city records, and the city continued to starve to death with a death toll of 2,000/month reached in April 1942, and more Russians and Ukrainians died in Kharkov of starvation in 1942 than Jews had been shot in January 1942.

After the final liberation of Kharkov, Soviet investigators opened two mass graves at Drobitskii Yar and filmed them. They estimated 15,000 bodies in the graves. The lower figure of 10-12,000 deaths is better supported by documents (especially the ghettoisation documents) and is the one used by Kharkhiv-based historian Aleksander Kruglov, the undisputed expert on the Holocaust in Ukraine, as well as USHMM in their encyclopedia, plus prominent German historian Dieter Pohl. There is no reason to accept the higher figures bandied around by commemoration groups in Kharkiv today on this. There is a strong academic consensus around 10-12,000 as the death toll.

SK4a's killings at Kharkov were not properly recorded in the Ereignismeldungen because the unit commander Blobel was replaced not long after the action, and because there were evident problems transmitting full reports in the winter of 1941/2 from a number of units; the compilers in Berlin did not include it. Theydid however compile a figure of 633,000 claimed by the RSHA for the end of 1942, which clearly corresponds to the increased bodycount compared to earlier reports (Einsatzgruppe A's Stahlecker report in February 1942, more than 240,000 Jews killed; Einsatzgruppe B- total bodycount past 128,000 by November 1942; Einsatzgruppe C: 91,000 reported killed by two commandos in December 1941; Einsatzgruppe D: 90,000 killed under Ohlendorf to the spring of 1942, recorded in multiple documents, rough total: 550,000 subtracting non-Jews killed by Einsatzgruppe B). The increase of at least 83,000 compared to the previous reports would include killings in the Caucasus by Einsatzgruppe D, and a variety of killings by Einsatzgruppe C in 1942 as a whole, along with the proper accounting of its subordinate commandos. Thus, the Kharkov action shows up in the relevant time-frame of a higher-level statistic and is entirely compatible with it.

Doubting the events at Kharkov or indeed Kiev requires explaining all of the evidence for those 633,000 Einsatzgruppen murders of Jews. Since the majority of the killings left explicit documentary traces this would be futile; no conceivable scenario exists in which the reports could have been 'exaggerated' postwar, and the figure of 633,000 is as close to what the Nazis themselves could have compiled for the Einsatzgruppen, not massaged upwards by anyone, since the Korherr report was euphemised. Taking that euphemism at face value for the occupied eastern territories would be nonsensical since at least 550,000 out of 633,000 killings can be counted in other statistics as killings, executions or liquidations.

A significant proportion of the 633,000 Einsatzgruppen killings resulted in mass graves being found intact, especially in the smaller towns and in the more easterly regions of the occupied Soviet Union. Larger towns further west including Kiev, Minsk, Riga, Kaunas and Vilnius were visited by Sonderkommando 1005, whose operations in a number of spots can be documented. Kharkov was not visited by 1005, and left one of several very large intact mass graves. It was not the only such intact mass grave or even the largest; most of the mass grave fields around Rovno were left unexhumed, and the Rovno action in November 1941 (which is documented) killed 15,000 Jews. This was however credited to HSSPF Ukraine, and doesn't show up in the figure of 633,000.

The possibility that these mass graves were the work of the NKVD can be ruled out because NKVD operations are known from post-1991 declassified documents, especially in Ukraine, and a much increased level of knowledge about NKVD killing sites.

It is certainly impossible to claim that specific sites were misattributed when those sites belong to the much bigger group of 633,000 Jews recorded as killed by the Einsatzgruppen, as there is no plausible way of reducing one site to nonexistence while accepting the others, and certainly no plausible way of nearly doubling the known executions of the Great Terror in 1937-38, which was the only previous major mass killing action in the region; much of the Terror happened of course around Leningrad, Moscow and further east, so the 700,000 executions before WWII cannot all be redistributed to the occupied territories. Soviet history is sufficiently well researched to refute any claim that there were further 'unknown' actions, as these would have left a trace of some kind, which does not exist.
 
In the case of the Holocaust, we have copious Nazi documents which for example prove mass deportations TO Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka as well as Chelmno (and no further; with no hint of 'transit'). The scale is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt by other corroborating Nazi documents. The key document confirming the numbers is the Korherr Report. This was demonstrably edited, as seen from another Nazi document, to replace the term 'Sonderbehandlung' with a euphemism 'transported to the Russian East'. Yet the editing was incomplete and 'Sonderbehandlung' shows up over the page all the same.
What Doctor Nick will not mention, is that Korherr HIMSELF denied this.


Korherr ascribed this fall to "emigration, partially due to the excess mortality of the Jews in Central and Western Europe, partially due to the evacuations especially in the more strongly populated Eastern Territories, which are here counted as ongoing."[1]

By way of explanation, Korherr added that "It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all. In addition there are movements of Jews inside Russia to the Asian part which are unknown to us. The movement of Jews from the European countries outside the German influence is also of a largely unknown order of magnitude. On the whole European Jewry should since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist German power, have lost almost half of its population."[1]

Korherr was never a member of the SS[3] and denied all knowledge of the Holocaust, saying that he had “only heard about exterminations after the collapse in 1945.”[4]

In a letter he sent to the German magazine Der Spiegel in July 1977, Korherr said that he had not written the report on Himmler’s order”[3] and that the “statement that I had mentioned that over a million Jews had died in the camps of the Generalgouvernement and the Warthegau through special treatment is also inaccurate. I must protest against the word ‘died’ in this context. It was the very word ‘Sonderbehandlung’ [‘special treatment’] that led me to call the RSHA by phone and ask what this word meant. I was given the answer that these were Jews who were settled in the Lublin district.”[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korherr_Report


If you check the HolocaustControversies blogspot, Doctor Nick and/or his colleagues find no other way around this inconvenient fact than to speculate it was not really Korherr, that he was probably already dead. Given the fact that Doctor Nick has lectured me in this thread before on forgeries, that is very rich. Being a professional historian, he could at the very least have contacted Der Spiegel, a serious German magazine, whether they still stand by their claim. Given the huge fuss around another German magazine when it published the fake 'Hitler diaries', I find the accusation of forgery unlikely. Surely if contacted by a history professor, Der Spiegel might answer. I've asked authors and editors before too if I had questions about authenticity and have gotten an answer sometimes.
 
Hmm, it seems as if you have yet to see the colour photos from BY itself. I'd start with this one, and then look through the whole set. I'm looking forward to your explanation of what happened to the owners of the clothes which have been abandoned in huge piles in the first-linked picture - it seems to be some distance to the Dnieper river from BY so I doubt they were just going for a swim.
Is your IP address banned from deathcamps.org or something? I linked to the same set of "rare colour" pictures, or should I say coloured pictures? By the way, I already submitted a post about that issue, I hope it gets through moderation. Care to explain this?

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/bigbabijar04.jpg
 
First attempt?

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/bigbabijar04.jpg

Second attempt?

http://www.fonjallaz.net/Film-Amen/Pages_Amen/babi-yar/babi-yar-3.jpg

Third time good time?

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/byalbum/pic/bigh05.jpg

I also came across this seemingly non revisionism associated blog with the following interesting information:

The photos were taken on the next day, October 1. We see no executions on them, just German soldiers searching for valuables in the piles of clothes, Soviet prisoners of war covering with earth the bottom of the ravine, and dead people laying on the streets of Kiev, who could not keep up with the march. Neither their source, nor their author is indicated. But whoever saw the Wehrmacht exhibition in Berlin – opened first in 1995, stirring a great debate, following which it was reorganized in 2000, and since then is open in the Deutsches Historisches Museum –, may remember, that some of the pictures were on display in black and white, under the name of Johannes Hähle.

As a honest war correspondent, Hähle handed over all his photos to the Propagandakompanie. According to the records of the PK, on 30 September 1941 he delivered 108 photos with the title "“insatz im Osten”, and on 13 October 7 further photos entitled “Umfassungsschlacht ostw. Kiew”. However, the Baby Yar film roll was not among them. Neither two other rolls, whose existence was discovered only much later.

The Spiegel’ question concerning the authorship and date of the pictures were answered much later by the director of the Archiv des Hamburger Instituts für Sozialforschung, Reinhard Schwarz, who recognized in them the photos of two further rolls by Johannes Hähle preserved by them. The pictures were hitherto unpublished, and Schwarz assumed that the copies uploaded to the net were made when the photos were lent some years ago to Kharkov for a city history exhibition.

The three rolls which Hähle never handed over to the PK had a long way to the archiv of Hamburg. The widow of Hähle sold them in 1954 to the Berlin journalist Hans Georg Schulz, who tried to publish them a number of times, but he was always refused by the editors who supposed that they would sensitively affect the German public. Finally the widow of Schulz sold them in 2000 to the institute of Hamburg who exposed the black and white copies of some of the color photos on the Wehrmacht exhibition. All the pictures of the roll – and not only the ten ones which now appeared on the Russian sites, but twenty-nine – were finally published in color on the Aktion Reinhard Camps site. We also take them over from there together with their captions.
http://riowang.blogspot.be/2011/09/johannes-hahle-kharkov-lubny-baby-yar.html
So it seems Johannes Hähle was not only at Babi Yar, but also at Kharkov near Dobrisky Yar, where just like in Babi Yar, 33,000 were killed in a ravine (depending on the version of both stories). A neat coincidence, I guess 33,000 is a popular figure like 6,000,000. Then there is this:

Babi Yar in Color

Last week the world marked the sixty-fifth anniversary of the Babi Yar massacre, the single biggest slaughter of Jews in the entire Second World War. As part of the memorial programme organised around the framework of the anniversary a major exposition at Ukraine House highlighting the wartime fate of Ukraine’s Jewish community brought the reality of Babi Yar to thousands of guests. Among the exhibits were extremely rare colour photographs of work carried out at the Babi Yar ravine in the immediate aftermath of the genocide to sort the belongings of the victims and cover up the mass graves created by the atrocity. These previously unpublished photos serve as a reminder of both the scale of the crime and of its close historical proximity.

The photographs clearly show teams of Soviet prisoners of war working at levelling off the ground above the mass graves and sorting through clothing and other personal possessions. According to German contemporary records some three hundred Soviet POWs were enlisted for this task, illustrating just how vast the scale of the killing had been. For years argument has raged over the role played in the massacre itself by Ukrainian collaborators, but available evidence suggests that while many participated in the round-up itself and the handling of victims prior to execution the killings themselves were largely perpetrated by German troops of the infamous Einsatzgruppe C, one of four such murderous formations sent into the Soviet UNI0N as part of Barbarossa behind the front line troops specifically in order to commit genocide.

These startling colour photographs first found their way to Kyiv in 2001 as part of an exhibit to mark the sixieth anniversary of the crime. They arrived in Ukraine via the Hamburg Institute of Social Research, which still holds the film itself. These extremely rare images were
originally taken by an official Wehrmacht photographer attached to the Sixth Army in the immediate aftermath of the two-day genocide on 29-30 Setember 1941. His use of colour film, extremely unusual but not unique for the time, gives the images an unnervingly modern feel, removing the genocide from the realms of ancient history and placing it firmly in the recent past. The Ukrainian capital had fallen to the Nazis on 19 September after a bitter struggle and on 28 September notices went up ordering Kyiv’s Jews to gather on pain of death the following morning, seemingly in order to be deported. Instead they were herded to the Babi Yar ravine, made to strip and executed. The huge ravine, which at the time was some two and a half kilometers long and between ten and fifty meters deep, soon began to fill up with bodies and the piles of personal possessions left behind. Over two days of constant executions over 33,000 Kyiv Jews were killed. This was one of the first occasions in WWII when the Germans engaged in such large scale massacre, and is now considered to have been an important psychological departure and intensification of the Nazi Holocaust that would eventually claim six million lives. In terms of sheer numbers no single massacre in the Jewish Holocaust ever came close to reaching such a high death toll as Babi Yar, making it of singular importance in European history.
http://www.whatson-kiev.com/index.php?go=News&in=view&id=726
This would lead one to think that the "colour"/coloured photos were first shown to the world in an exhibition in Kiev in October 2006. Going to the wayback machine on the internet however, teaches us those very same colour photographs were on the deathcamps.org site already in May 2006.

By the way, the Germans had captured the city only one September 19, managed to hang up posters on September 28 and get a turnup of 33,000 jews the next day at the requested site, near a jewish cemetery (that won't raise suspicions or isn't a bad omen) and find a way to execute them in a place they've only just captured days ago, as well as manage the logistics of having thousands of jews stay overnight as they couldn't shoot all 33,000 in a single day? Some people may believe in German efficiency but the troubles with my Volkswagen type engine has led me to think otherwise...
 
Of course, it's ironic that you claim that debunkers don't know what they are talking about, when a certain denier in this thread once posted information from Wikipedia that directly contradicted them, then tried to pretend they hadn't by quoting another section of the exact same Wikipedia page, then left the thread temporarily.

Also, your metaphor is badly flawed. I used to be a sales associate, and it was rarely incumbent upon me to know how whatever widget I was hawking was made. In fact, it's rare for any salesman to do so. Requirements, yes, but that's often part of the basic knowledge of what they're selling, and that depends on the nature of the product. When you go down to your local Chevy dealer, do you ask him about the automotive manufacturing process?

If you'd like to actually discuss the evidence, such as my post #5483, feel free. The post you are quoting uses a lot of unsourced numbers and a fair amount on incredulity, and you seem to have avoided actually addressing any of the claims it makes, despite your ostensible support. The idea that unlettered people on the internet deign to lecture a doctor of history about how much he does not know is absurd. If Doctor Terry's ignorance is so evident, I look forward to your significant responses to his posts. Or anyone's.

I find it interesting that Tommy does not mention the revolt in 1943, in which hundreds of prisoners supposedly escaped. Were their testimonies fabricated after the war as well? By the way, the Nazis forced the remaining prisoners to dismantle the camp, and then killed them. Odd sort of "deportation".

Most of the facts the Holocaust huggers drone on about have little to do with the Germans embarking on genocide of European Jewish people.

The revolt of 1943 proves that the camps were not the crushing hell of baby bayoneting guard types.

The questions of how the task dots were connected are always ignored.

For instance how did millions of Jewish people flow evenly to "death" camps over a period of three years without staging bottlenecks? Or not be aware aware that the millions of Jewish people before them had been killed?

Staging area, a location used to prepare items for use, such as for a military operation


The fact that the camp populations could function, perform meaningful work for the German war effort, without riots while a genocide of millions was taking place in their midst means that NO GENOCIDE was taking place in their midst.

It's that freaking simple.
 
Most of the facts the Holocaust huggers drone on about have little to do with the Germans embarking on genocide of European Jewish people.

The revolt of 1943 proves that the camps were not the crushing hell of baby bayoneting guard types.

The questions of how the task dots were connected are always ignored.

For instance how did millions of Jewish people flow evenly to "death" camps over a period of three years without staging bottlenecks? Or not be aware aware that the millions of Jewish people before them had been killed?

Staging area, a location used to prepare items for use, such as for a military operation


The fact that the camp populations could function, perform meaningful work for the German war effort, without riots while a genocide of millions was taking place in their midst means that NO GENOCIDE was taking place in their midst.

It's that freaking simple.

It's not even internally consistent: one minute camp revolts disprove inhuman conditions in those camps, the next an absence of riots disproves genocide, all the while ignoring the actual evidence in favour of your own dubious logic.

But if you're so interested logistics and tying up loose ends perhaps you can explain where all the Jews went? I've no doubt that you won't as the subject has been raised before.
 
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Most of the facts the Holocaust huggers drone on about have little to do with the Germans embarking on genocide of European Jewish people.

The revolt of 1943 proves that the camps were not the crushing hell of baby bayoneting guard types.

The questions of how the task dots were connected are always ignored.

For instance how did millions of Jewish people flow evenly to "death" camps over a period of three years without staging bottlenecks? Or not be aware aware that the millions of Jewish people before them had been killed?

Staging area, a location used to prepare items for use, such as for a military operation


The fact that the camp populations could function, perform meaningful work for the German war effort, without riots while a genocide of millions was taking place in their midst means that NO GENOCIDE was taking place in their midst.

It's that freaking simple.

Staging areas = ghettos in various cities

With respect to your contention that no genocide could have taken place due to the lack of constant rioting - I would refer you to several of the recent genocides that have taken place - the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. People of the targeted groups were quite aware that the event were taking place, but no rioting. Or are you denying those as well?
 
The fact that the camp populations could function, perform meaningful work for the German war effort, without riots while a genocide of millions was taking place in their midst means that NO GENOCIDE was taking place in their midst.

It's that freaking simple.

Clayton, you are, in essence, saying that there had to be riots somewhere or else there would be "NO GENOCIDE" anywhere. That is a gross generalization and an appeal to perfection. Your incredulity is proof of nothing.

Please, try finding any documented evidence (confessions, statements by those responsible, money trails definitively tied to intents), anywhere, that the entirety of Holocaust history as commonly accepted has been fabricated with intent to deceive.
 
Most of the facts the Holocaust huggers drone on about have little to do with the Germans embarking on genocide of European Jewish people.

The revolt of 1943 proves that the camps were not the crushing hell of baby bayoneting guard types.

The questions of how the task dots were connected are always ignored.

For instance how did millions of Jewish people flow evenly to "death" camps over a period of three years without staging bottlenecks? Or not be aware aware that the millions of Jewish people before them had been killed?

Staging area, a location used to prepare items for use, such as for a military operation


The fact that the camp populations could function, perform meaningful work for the German war effort, without riots while a genocide of millions was taking place in their midst means that NO GENOCIDE was taking place in their midst.

It's that freaking simple.

I would suggest that you actually read up on the history of the period.
 
The fact that the camp populations could function, perform meaningful work for the German war effort...


Were these camp populations paid a wage to perform this "meaningful work" for the German war effort? If not, then they were slave labour. Hardly something which recommends the Nazi regime as a positive or benevolent entity.
 
Staging areas = ghettos in various cities

With respect to your contention that no genocide could have taken place due to the lack of constant rioting - I would refer you to several of the recent genocides that have taken place - the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. People of the targeted groups were quite aware that the event were taking place, but no rioting. Or are you denying those as well?

Clayton has, in the past, proven oddly reluctant to apply his claims and insinuations about the Holocaust to other genocides. Perhaps that will change.

I fail to see how prisoners revolting proves the Nazis weren't killing Jews, Clay, and why do you and other Deniers keep bringing up claims historians don't exactly widely accept, and in fact often explicitly say were made up, such as the bayoneting babies thing? No one here with any significant knowledge thinks that's true. Not deniers, not debunkers.

Are you incapable of telling the difference between what the public believed and what actual historians believe? Do you consider them all merely "holocaust huggers"?

I note that you still haven't actually directly addressed anything in the post you quoted, or #5483. In fact, your post #5549 seems to be your patented combination of vague, unbacked statements, straw men, loaded questions you don't actually want the answers to, and, ah yes, incredulity. Much of which has been smacked down already.

I mentioned that according to the official story, the prisoners were killed after dismantling Treblinka, not "deported". Anything to say about that?
 
More arguments to incredulity. The fact is that deported Jews were made to send postcards to their home communities before being killed, this happened e.g. in Treblinka during the Warsaw ghetto action, and was also done with Dutch Jews being made to send correspondence to the Jewish Council in the Netherlands. Slovak Jews similarly were made to write (censored) letters and postcards back to Slovakia.
I earlier posted something about this topic. I interpreted this as the Nazis forging tons of letters from deported jews to their loved ones as it is insinuated below that the letters were from "escaped jews" and despite apparently tons of them escaping, they managed to flood Warsaw with letters apparently still saying "hey, nothing z'up here, we all fine and stuff". Now Doctor Nick is insinuating it is from "captured jews", forced to write letters with "all iz fine" by ze evil Germans at gunpoint. On which ridiculous version shall we settle, Nick? Or maybe they went to Białystok, Brest-Litovsk, Kosov, Malkinia, Pinsk and Smolensk after all?

The Bund newspaper Oif der Vach published a lengthy article about Treblinka on September 20:

‘The Jews of Warsaw Are Killed in Treblinka’
During the first week of the “deportation Aktion” Warsaw was flooded with greetings from the deported Jews. The greetings arrived from Białystok, Brest-Litovsk, Kosov, Malkinia, Pinsk, Smolensk. All this was a lie. All the trains with the Warsaw Jews went to Treblinka, where the Jews were murdered in the most cruel way. The letters and greetings came from people who succeeded in escaping from the trains or from the camp. It is possible that in the beginning, from the first transports, some of the Warsaw Jews were sent to Brest-Litovsk or Pinsk, in order that their greetings would mislead, deceive, and provoke false illusions among the Jews in Warsaw.

...
Edited by LashL: 
Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Please, do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text from elsewhere. Instead, cite a short quote and a link to the source.


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.be/2011/12/belzec-sobibor-treblinka-holocaust_8672.html
 
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This is the exact same article that goes on to say people were killed on an industrial scale, right?

It is intellectually dishonest to try and pit two sources who disagree with you against each other, especially since you make it clear you think both are bunk. The only purpose of doing so is an attempt to discredit one or the other or both since you can't actually refute it yourself. It's not like the postcards are really that important, but CTs often tend to dig their heels in on minor details.

Doc Terry isn't insinuating anything. He's stating outright, and you are avoiding the rest of his post, including a direct challenge which you are trying to pretend doesn't exist;

Go on, show us that the six online works mentioned rely on a mere 100 Nazi documents which are thought to be probative of extermination but in all 100 cases historians are wildly mistaken.

Or will you concede that there are clearly more than 100 documents of that kind which you'll find in these six works.

If you concede that, then 'overwhelming lack of documentary proof' was a lie, wasn't it?
 
I earlier posted something about this topic. I interpreted this as the Nazis forging tons of letters from deported jews to their loved ones as it is insinuated below that the letters were from "escaped jews" and despite apparently tons of them escaping, they managed to flood Warsaw with letters apparently still saying "hey, nothing z'up here, we all fine and stuff". Now Doctor Nick is insinuating it is from "captured jews", forced to write letters with "all iz fine" by ze evil Germans at gunpoint. On which ridiculous version shall we settle, Nick? Or maybe they went to Białystok, Brest-Litovsk, Kosov, Malkinia, Pinsk and Smolensk after all?

As 000063 said, I wasn't insinuating, I was stating.

The full article from the Warsaw underground press cited by me in the critique, and also appearing in Arad, makes it clear that Jews escaping from the trains and from Treblinka brought with them postcards marked as if from from Bialystok etc, while it seems other postcards actually arrived by mail in the Warsaw ghetto marked as if from Bialystok etc (see below). In September 1942 this was interpreted as a Nazi deception, which it was. They knew that at the time because escapees from Treblinka confirmed this. The escapees brought with them, it seems, fake postcards written in Treblinka purporting to come from elsewhere.

The Ringelblum archive contains a number of examples of such postcards, published in facsimile in Listy z zaglady, one of many volumes of Archiwum Ringelbluma, a Polish-language series of documentary publications.

None of the postcards say 'I escaped from the train to Treblinka and hey, now I'm in Bialystok!' Given the overall interpretation placed on these postcards in your source as an act of Nazi deception, it makes zero sense to parse 'these postcards come from escapees' as meaning that the escapees posted them from elsewhere. It would have been a truly herculean task for any escapee to make it all the way from Treblinka to Smolensk in just 2 months under wartime conditions since this would force them to move by foot.

As there are survivors from the named ghettos/localities/camps, we know that there weren't any such transfers. The Bialystok ghetto was emptied westwards into Treblinka and Auschwitz starting in November 1942, the Pinsk and Brest ghettos were destroyed in a mass shooting at the end of October 1942. Malkinia didn't exist as a camp for Jews at all but was simply a rail junction not far from Treblinka. The only camp there was for collaborator troops of the Ostlegionen.

The exception is Smolensk because the survivors in question from Smolensk came from Warsaw to Bobruisk without going anywhere near Treblinka at all, and consisted of a single transport sent more or less 'under the counter' from one SS agency to another SS agency which wanted some labourers and couldn't get them as easily from other sources. Another such transport had already been transferred from Warsaw to Bobruisk before the deportations began en masse on July 22. And they are the only two transports known to have shown up anywhere in the occupied eastern territories alive, and the only two transports from which there were any survivors whatsoever (about half a dozen, IIRC, generally people who escaped to the partisans).

At the time (September 1942), the Warsaw ghetto underground couldn't know that one of the transports from Warsaw really did go to Smolensk, albeit not via Treblinka. However they did know that the postcards were in general faked, and they had the information from escapees of Treblinka that it was a site of mass extermination.

Since September 1942, not a shred of evidence has come to light confirming your 'maybe they went there after all?' wishful thinking. Certainly no survivors, no German/non-German witnesses, and no documents. If any had, you'd cite this evidence and it'd be splashed all over the denier literature, and we'd be having a very different discussion - probably about how Jews starved to death en masse in 'resettlement camps' in the occupied eastern territories a la the Armenian genocide.
 
What Doctor Nick will not mention, is that Korherr HIMSELF denied this.

If you check the HolocaustControversies blogspot, Doctor Nick and/or his colleagues find no other way around this inconvenient fact than to speculate it was not really Korherr, that he was probably already dead. Given the fact that Doctor Nick has lectured me in this thread before on forgeries, that is very rich. Being a professional historian, he could at the very least have contacted Der Spiegel, a serious German magazine, whether they still stand by their claim. Given the huge fuss around another German magazine when it published the fake 'Hitler diaries', I find the accusation of forgery unlikely. Surely if contacted by a history professor, Der Spiegel might answer. I've asked authors and editors before too if I had questions about authenticity and have gotten an answer sometimes.

Once again, you show you really are not completely fluent in English and misunderstand what was written in two different places.

Korherr never denied that his report was edited to replace Sonderbehandlung with 'transported to the Russian east'. He claimed later on to have been told that Jews who had been subjected to 'Sonderbehandlung' had been resettled in Lublin, but this is not entirely plausible due to the wordings found elsewhere in the report.

You certainly misunderstand Roberto Muehlenkamp's argument in the blog post; he explicitly rules out that the letter was written by someone else, even though Hilberg expressed surprise in the 1980s, a not unwarranted surprise because in 1977, Korherr would have been 74 years of age. What Roberto was explicitly testing was the plausibility of Korherr's denial of all knowledge. He then went on to test that plausibility against many possible wordings of the original text which was demonstrably edited, as well as against other passages in the report.

Korherr was not an SS member and not involved in operational, day-to-day decisionmaking, but a statistician brought in to process and write up materials supplied to him by the RSHA. He was either provided with documents stating that Jews had been subjected to Sonderbehandlung or told by an RSHA officer to write that they had been subjected to Sonderbehandlung. This is copiously confirmed from affidavits after the war from Korherr himself. By his own account, he asked what Sonderbehandlung meant and was given a answer which was a transparent lie and pure bovine faeces, since 1.27 million Jews were not 'resettled' in the Lublin district.

The issue is not therefore Korherr's comprehension or what Korherr says. It is what Sonderbehandlung meant in early 1943 to the RSHA. The evidence indicates overwhelmingly that Sonderbehandlung meant extrajudicial execution. Even though this was a euphemism (no different to other euphemisms for killing used by secret services or secret police forces across the whole of the 20th Century), it was deemed to be too explicit by Himmler, who told Korherr to change the wording.

Korherr's denial of all knowledge or comprehension is implausible, but his incomprehension is irrelevant.
 
Is your IP address banned from deathcamps.org or something? I linked to the same set of "rare colour" pictures, or should I say coloured pictures? By the way, I already submitted a post about that issue, I hope it gets through moderation. Care to explain this?

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/bigbabijar04.jpg

Your link went through to a series of black-and-white photos. The single linked picture is black-and-white with a colouring of German soldiers/SS men. It isn't therefore part of the original colour photo run, and who created it is irrelevant.
 
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