The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Meadmaker]

Also, PeaceCrusader, you asserted that the day after the ascension was the Feast of Tabernacles.

If that's true, it would be pretty powerful evidence in support of your unorthodox calendar theory and the non-standard date of the crucifixion. However, you don't seem to have any support for that date. In the earlier discussion, you seemed to draw evidence from the fact that the apostles were sober at 9 o'clock in the morning, but I was very confused by that part. I was hoping you could clear up what evidence you have that connects the ascension and the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Meadmaker]

Please reread my explanation regarding the crucifixion sometime near Passover. Is it correct to say that Jesus was crucified on Passover? That is the tradition, isn’t it?

No, that's not the tradition. The tradition is that the Last Supper was the Passover seder. He was crucified a few days later, during the period of the Passover observance, but as noted before, it would be more correct to say that he was crucified during the feast of the unleavened bread.


These days, we usually just call all eight days "Passover", but strictly speaking, that's not the case. I don't know if they were in the habit of making the distinction back in Jesus' time.

 

[Meadmaker]

Actually, I think that the problem was simply that different rabbis calculated the date a bit differently, and there was a little room for jitter around the proper date.

That's the problem Constantine was trying to clear up. He wanted uniformity of the celebration. During the course of explaining several reasons why they shouldn't pay attention to what Jews did, one of the things he said was that they frequently celebrated Passover twice. It was one reason in a list of reasons why he thought Romans ought to just ignore the Jews.

However, it has significance to the topic because PC is using it as evidence that the Jews were using some calendar other than the well known "lunisolar" calendar. How could Passover fall twice within the same year? PC has given one explanation, which is that it wasn't a Spring holiday at all. It moved around the year in an undocumented lunar calendar used for some, but not all, of the holidays decreed as Mitzvot in the Bible. Sometimes, it was in January, and if that were the case, it would come again in December.

Obvious, isn't it?

I have offered a rather more prosaic explanation, which is that Jews celebrate Passover twice in the same year, and there's nothing extraordinary about it. It's just the custom. It wasn't universal then. It isn't universal now. But it's a common thing to do.

Others have offered other explanations related to the overlap of various calendars.

 

[Akuma Tennou]

This is not hypocrisy. The Holey Babble can on the one hand be true and accurate, when needed, yet completely wrong and inaccurate as the situation demands.

Another miracle from gunderscored...Hallelujah. (or as we say here "what's it to ya?")

guess god truly moves in mysterious sways

 

[tsig]

guess god truly moves in mysterious sways

Yeh, you oughta clean his toilet.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

I'm confused, PC.
You've stated that comments about the false predictions given in those seances is off-topic in this thread, yet quote this pious legend as though it were fact and somehow pertinent to the topic.

Could you clear that up, please?
Also, since Passover is a festival associated with the Spring Equinox, how can we think there was ever a strictly lunar calendar used?

@pakeha, #497

Jesus was crucified according to the Holy Bible. This was confirmed to us by Ama. Ama related to us about the three seeds that were planted by Gumamela Celis (the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Heaven), and the cross. I cited the legend from the book of Mala Powers, which I did not know before (about two weeks ago). When I connect the legend she related with those of what Ama said to us (tape recorded), there seems to be a relation. What Ama said, to me, are more logically correct. So the legend has to be corrected.

Now, in the Jewish lunisolar calendar, Passover is celebrated in Spring. What Ama said is that Jesus was crucified and died on August 17, a summer date. I checked if there is any ring of truth in it. Yes, there is, based on the study I made from 1999 to 2003. Not only did Ama revealed the August 17 crucifixion date said but He also gave the date when Jesus was born – May 23 – which I found to be correct also based on the study I made from 2004 to 2006. Who could be correct on these two ancient dates? Only God!

What I found is that the Jews were using a purely lunar calendar from the time of their departure in Egypt in the 16th century BC until their calendar reformation in 358/359 AD. I also found that the Jews adopted the Babylonian lunisolar calendar from the seventh century BC when they were exiled in Babylon.

I am still alive so there is no need for you to speculate. You can ask me and know my experiences with Ama first hand. Please note.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Actually, I think that the problem was simply that different rabbis calculated the date a bit differently, and there was a little room for jitter around the proper date. The first sentences in Constantine's letter state that it would be desirable if all celebrated easter on the same day. Which kinda tells you the problem: DIFFERENT people were getting different dates. So Constantine wanted a standardized calculation instead of that. I don't think his problem was much with some Jews (if any) who celebrated two passovers, but that different Jews told the Christians different dates, so you could end up with two or more different dates told to you as the real passover date.

It's also worth noting how things worked back then. The Christians had no idea how to calculate Passover, so every year they had to go ask some rabbi in their town.

But the rest of the time, the Christians were pretty anti-semitic to various degrees, ranging from just harassing the Jews about what they should accept Christ, to foaming-at-the-mouth anti-semitism. I mean accusing the Jews of some conspiracy or another is even in the canon gospels (see Matthew's trial. or finding the empty tomb, or Jesus's foaming at the mouth about "sons of vipers" pharisees, etc), plus at least one Pauline epistles, but some of the gospels of other churches, which weren't selected as canon by Irenaeus and the gang, are a lot less nice.

I mean, heck, read even just Constantine's letter ( http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/const1-easter.asp ) for some foaming at the mouth of the caliber of "he Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes" or "We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews" or ", we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews". That's anti-semitism plain and simple.

Now read the second paragraph again: and after harassing these Jews for a year, the same guys went and asked them basically, "say, when is passover this year? We must celebrate the day you guys killed him.' I wouldn't rule out that some rabbi or another would tell a wrong date for lulz there. I mean, I know I would in that kind of situation.

PC, I don't remember your offering any opinion on this;


The letter attributed to Constantine does not mention December or January. It does say twice in one year. If he were talking about the ecclesiastical calendar and the liturgical year, then that new year would have been at the start of April (which coincidentally still survives as the 6th April start of the financial year in the UK). If he were referring to this, then it appears to me the date of Passover would sometimes fall on one side of this date and sometimes on the other. Each time it changed, there would be two Passovers in one (Christian) year.

Even if you insist the entirely plausible explanation of Passover being celebrated over two days is not what the letter refers to, this seems to me to be a perfectly good explanation.

So is this just a case of April Fool?

@HansMustermann, #494
@Jack by the hedge, #495

Constantine I was talking about Passover and about the Jews in http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/const1-easter.asp . He would like that
Easter or Christian Passover be uniformly be celebrated on the same day but not on the Passover date of the Jews. At the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, the Christians have already determined that Passover should be around the vernal equinox in March or April. The Jews were still celebrating Passover “frequently”, twice in a year. Not “every year” or “always” but “frequently”. I have said in this forum that these Passovers happened in AD years 18, 51, 83, 116, 149, 181, 214, 246, 279, 311. How twice? The Jews had Passover in early January and another one in late December. Why is it so? Because the Jews had Passover in a purely lunar calendar whereas the Romans were using a solar calendar.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

What's your point?

You are correct, but do you have a point? Constantine was talking about Passover and Easter, and saying we shouldn't worry about the "detestable" Jews, because they can't even figure out when Passover is, and some of the celebrate twice.

If he had been trying to set the days for Pentecost and Sukkot, he may have said the same thing.

@Meadmaker, #496

If you say that the Jews were celebrating Passover twice in a year for the benefit of those in the Diaspora (not in Israel) like in Asia Minor, Greece, or Rome, how about Shavuoth and Sukkoth? They were celebrated as well with an additional day. So your reasoning that Passover was celebrated twice in a year was for the benefit of those in the Diaspora is flawed for Shavuoth and Sukkoth were also celebrated with an additional day.

The Christians were able to determine when Passover should be in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, so there was no need to rely on the Jews of when to celebrate Easter or Christian Passover. To do away with this controversy, the Jews in 358/359 AD quietly reformed their calendars and made it what it is today. My question to you is why did they reform their calendar and what did they do in 358/359 AD?

 

[pakeha]

@pakeha, #497

Jesus was crucified according to the Holy Bible. This was confirmed to us by Ama. Ama related to us about the three seeds that were planted by Gumamela Celis (the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Heaven), and the cross. I cited the legend from the book of Mala Powers, which I did not know before (about two weeks ago). When I connect the legend she related with those of what Ama said to us (tape recorded), there seems to be a relation. What Ama said, to me, are more logically correct. So the legend has to be corrected.

Now, in the Jewish lunisolar calendar, Passover is celebrated in Spring. What Ama said is that Jesus was crucified and died on August 17, a summer date. I checked if there is any ring of truth in it. Yes, there is, based on the study I made from 1999 to 2003. Not only did Ama revealed the August 17 crucifixion date said but He also gave the date when Jesus was born – May 23 – which I found to be correct also based on the study I made from 2004 to 2006. Who could be correct on these two ancient dates? Only God!

What I found is that the Jews were using a purely lunar calendar from the time of their departure in Egypt in the 16th century BC until their calendar reformation in 358/359 AD. I also found that the Jews adopted the Babylonian lunisolar calendar from the seventh century BC when they were exiled in Babylon.

I am still alive so there is no need for you to speculate. You can ask me and know my experiences with Ama first hand. Please note.

Hi, PC.
I'm still interested in knowing why you think there was a strictly lunar calendar in use among the Jews at the time of Tiberius.

I've looked up the subject at wiki and found
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

The Hebrew calendar has evolved over time. For example, until the Tannaitic period (approximately 10–220 CE) the months were set by observation of a new crescent moon, with an additional month added every two or three years to correct for the difference between twelve lunar months and the solar year, and therefore, to keep Passover in the spring. The addition of the extra month was also based on observation of natural events, namely the ripening of the barley crop, the age of the kids, lambs and doves, the ripeness of the fruit trees, and the relation to the Tekufah (seasons).[2] Through the Amoraic period (200 to 500 CE) and into the Geonic period, this system was displaced by mathematical rules. The principles and rules appear to have been settled by the time Maimonides compiled the Mishneh Torah in the 12th century.

My bolding.
It really seems as though your calculations don't take into account the reality that Passover is a Spring festival.
No matter what you try to rationalise based on the seances you've heard about, the truth is that Passover is held in the Spring.

And I'm still confused about why the legend you cited is pertinent to the topic.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Jesus was crucified according to the Holy Bible.

That he was crucified is one of the few things that the various gospel accounts all agree on. Many other details are disputed by the different accounts.

This was confirmed to us by Ama.

Is this the same Ama who assured you that 2/3 of the world's populace would be dead by now? Seriously, you said that you would have to regard a failed prophet as a false messenger of God. Yet here you are ignoring all reminders of your prophet's failure except to demand that all mention of this failure be directed to another thread that you certainly will never revisit.

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, #496

If you say that the Jews were celebrating Passover twice in a year for the benefit of those in the Diaspora (not in Israel) like in Asia Minor, Greece, or Rome, how about Shavuoth and Sukkoth? They were celebrated as well with an additional day. So your reasoning that Passover was celebrated twice in a year was for the benefit of those in the Diaspora is flawed for Shavuoth and Sukkoth were also celebrated with an additional day.

Yes, all of them were celebrated twice. Two Passovers. Two Shimini Atzaret (at the end of Sukkot), two Shavuots. Two Yom Kippurs. Two Passovers.

My kid goes to a Jewish shool, and always gets two days off at each of those holidays.

My question to you is why did they reform their calendar and what did they do in 358/359 AD?

You have already asked it. We have already answered it. Being unable to communicate with Jerusalem, and with the Sanhedrin meeting banned anyway, they needed a way to figure out when to celebrate the holidays that didn't rely on the priestly determination of the beginning of the month.

Now,are you going to answer the question you have about evidence that connects the ascension with Sukkoth?

 

[Meadmaker]

It really seems as though your calculations don't take into account the reality that Passover is a Spring festival.

Apparently, barley ripens by moonlight, so a lunar calendar is the most appropriate one to use when timing a barley harvest.

 

[Astreja]

The Christians were able to determine when Passover should be in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, so there was no need to rely on the Jews of when to celebrate Easter or Christian Passover.

Passover is a Jewish holiday.

And Easter is Mine. Kindly do not nail people to trees on My holiday.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

To appreciate how the Jews were using two kinds of calendars simultaneously during the crucifixion of Jesus, I would like to invite you to visit http://aristean.org/speaktongue.htm titled “Speaking in tongue happened during the Festival of Tabernacles, and not at Pentecost”. Please go to Table 2 titled “Dates in the Jewish civil and religious calendars from Av 1, 3760 AM to Tishri 30, 3761 AM and in the proleptic Gregorian calendar in the year 1 BC”.

 

[Akhenaten]

Passover is a Jewish holiday.

And Easter is Mine. Kindly do not nail people to trees on My holiday.

I wish there was a day named after the Sun. I'd claim that for sure.

 

[Akhenaten]

To appreciate how the Jews were using two kinds of calendars simultaneously during the crucifixion of Jesus, I would like to invite you to visit http://aristean.org/speaktongue.htm titled “Speaking in tongue happened during the Festival of Tabernacles, and not at Pentecost”.

Well, yeah, that sure sounds like a totally legitimate and completely independent source with which to consult for confirmation of your Fractured Fairytale™.

Not.

 

[pakeha]

Thanks, O Pharaoh reminding me of that wonderful television series!

.. You can ask me and know my experiences with Ama first hand. Please note.

PC, what was revealed in the seances is one thing but their relation to reality quite another.

The information that Pontius Pilate was a golem created by a 12 year old Jesus is so absurd on its own that it makes the calendar proposals difficult to take seriously, especially in light of the fact there is no evidence passover was ever, by any stretch of the imagination, celebrated outside of Spring.

 

[Akuma Tennou]

@pakeha, #497

Jesus was crucified according to the Holy Bible. This was confirmed to us by Ama. Ama related to us about the three seeds that were planted by Gumamela Celis (the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Heaven), and the cross. I cited the legend from the book of Mala Powers, which I did not know before (about two weeks ago). When I connect the legend she related with those of what Ama said to us (tape recorded), there seems to be a relation. What Ama said, to me, are more logically correct. So the legend has to be corrected.

Now, in the Jewish lunisolar calendar, Passover is celebrated in Spring. What Ama said is that Jesus was crucified and died on August 17, a summer date. I checked if there is any ring of truth in it. Yes, there is, based on the study I made from 1999 to 2003. Not only did Ama revealed the August 17 crucifixion date said but He also gave the date when Jesus was born – May 23 – which I found to be correct also based on the study I made from 2004 to 2006. Who could be correct on these two ancient dates? Only God!
What I found is that the Jews were using a purely lunar calendar from the time of their departure in Egypt in the 16th century BC until their calendar reformation in 358/359 AD. I also found that the Jews adopted the Babylonian lunisolar calendar from the seventh century BC when they were exiled in Babylon.

I am still alive so there is no need for you to speculate. You can ask me and know my experiences with Ama first hand. Please note.

nope, you told the bible was wrong. why are you dodging your own heresy? so here goes:
* you believe a "prophet" that you qualified yourself of being a false one
* you interpret the word of your god with pagan arts and pagan texts
* you told the inerrant word of your god was, well... wrong
what's your point? you're but an heretic blasphemer from your religion standards, what do you expect from us? to believe in your grandma? if you're expecting to gain new visitors to your sorry excuse for a site by spamming JREF, the only thing you'll get is JREF coming before your own site in a google search: people will see how deluded you are and may pay a visit to your site to laugh at you. either way you lose: no paradise but hell, no new ama-cultists friends but humiliation. what's your frakking point?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Jesus was crucified according to the Holy Bible.

That's what it says.

This was confirmed to us by Ama. <silly legend snipped> When I connect the legend she related with those of what Ama said to us (tape recorded), there seems to be a relation. What Ama said, to me, are more logically correct. So the legend has to be corrected.

So Ama (who we remember makes demonstrably false declarations) tells you versions of tales you also heard elsewhere, therefore the known liar Ama must be right? Cool story.

Now, in the Jewish lunisolar calendar, Passover is celebrated in Spring.

Spring. right.

What Ama said is...

Doesn't matter what the liar Ama said. Ama lies. Fact.

I am still alive so there is no need for you to speculate. You can ask me and know my experiences with Ama first hand. Please note.

I don't care about your experiences with Ama, since we know we can't trust Ama. I want you to explain your proof of those dates without reference to Ama.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I have said in this forum that these Passovers happened in AD years 18, 51, 83, 116, 149, 181, 214, 246, 279, 311. How twice? The Jews had Passover in early January and another one in late December. Why is it so? Because the Jews had Passover in a purely lunar calendar whereas the Romans were using a solar calendar.

You have said that, repeatedly, but nobody's buying it.

Convince us. Bring evidence.