The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Agatha]

@Meadmaker, #468

You are justifying the two days for Passover but that is not the case. The Jews celebrated two Passovers because the first was in early January and the second was in late December as shown in the following:

First Passover Second Passover
0019-01-08 0019-12-28
0052-01-04 0052-12-23
0084-01-11 0084-12-30
0117-01-05 0117-12-25
0150-01-01 0150-12-21
0182-01-07 0182-12-27
0215-01-02 0214-12-22
0247-01-08 0247-12-28
0280-01-04 0280-12-23
0312-01-11 0312-12-30
0345-01-05 0345-12-25

No, those dates are your calculations based on your misconception that Passover wandered through the year. You are wrong in this.

This is what Constantine I said: “they [the Jews] frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year.”

See what Constantine I said, “frequently”. He did not say “always”.

Given that Constantine didn't speak English, I doubt he said either word. Even if you can show what Constantine said in the original language, and be confident that it's been properly translated, AND that Constantine was correct, this is merely third hand hearsay.

In Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 22, page 448, it says:
“In modern Israel, Pesah, Shavuot, and Sukkot are celebrated for the number of days prescribed by Scripture, namely, seven days, one day, and eight days, respectively (with Shemini Atzeret added to Sukkot). Due to calendrical uncertainties which arose in Second Temple times (6th century BCE to 1st century CE), each festival is celebrated for an additional day in the Diaspora.”

Yes. On the next following day, not at random times in the year.

 

[Akhenaten]

@abaddon, #476

Was Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1 of “The War of the Jews” by Josephus forged? I don’t think so because I was able to solve it.

Apart from anything else, there's not a chance in the world that those two things are related.

 

[Agatha]

@abaddon, #476

Was Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1 of “The War of the Jews” by Josephus forged? I don’t think so because I was able to solve it.

In what way did you 'solve' it, and what does you 'solving' it have to do with determining which bits were written by Josephus and which bits were added later?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

In what way did you 'solve' it, and what does you 'solving' it have to do with determining which bits were written by Josephus and which bits were added later?

@Agatha, #483

abaddon said, “Well, that's hard to answer. Do you mean the bits Josephus wrote, or the bits added by later forgers? Which?” abaddon is the one who is saying that there are bits that were forged which were added later.

“In what way did I ‘solve’ it?” Since people couldn’t figure out what Josephus wrote, they charge that his work was a forgery. But it wasn’t. I was able to solve it using the Aristean Cycle and the Holy Bible.

 

[Akhenaten]

“In what way did I ‘solve’ it?” Since people couldn’t figure out what Josephus wrote, they charge that his work was a forgery.

Where is this lack of understanding and these charges documented?

But it wasn’t. I was able to solve it using the Aristean Cycle and the Holy Bible.

This meaningless nonsense does nothing to answer the question you were asked.

 

[Foster Zygote]

"If the prophecy fails, then He must be a false god, an impostor. I say, if you were to believe in a god, be sure that He is the true God."

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, et al.

Could you please work out the years when these accounts by the first-century historian Josephus happened? Was he using a lunar, lunisolar, or solar calendar?
Accounts:
1. Fall of Jerusalem to the Romans
2. Assumption of the kingship by King David
3. Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians
4. Founding of Jerusalem by Melchizedek

The War of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm

Why would I want to do such a thing?

I am quite certain that if I tried, I would come to the conclusion that he just made stuff up, because the dates aren't known for most of the events.

You say you have solved this puzzle. By all means, present your solution, and we can see if it is at least consistent with the historical record.

 

[Agatha]

@Agatha, #483

abaddon said, “Well, that's hard to answer. Do you mean the bits Josephus wrote, or the bits added by later forgers? Which?” abaddon is the one who is saying that there are bits that were forged which were added later.

“In what way did I ‘solve’ it?” Since people couldn’t figure out what Josephus wrote, they charge that his work was a forgery. But it wasn’t. I was able to solve it using the Aristean Cycle and the Holy Bible.

No, nobody has said that. I don't know whether you are deliberately misreading or whether this is an English language mistranslation for you.

What people are saying here, and indeed what scholars have known for centuries is that Josephus wrote most of the work, but he wrote it from a Greek perspective and with a purpose of improving the Greek's perception of Jews and their culture. He altered the roles of some ancient characters, he added events and traditions which may well not have occurred, and he omitted some things which didn't accord with the story he wished to convey. Also, he was recording what he had been told by others, rather than reporting events to which he had been an eye-witness.

Furthermore, after he wrote it, some things were added in to the work by others. The Testimonium Flavianum is one such addition. Bear in mind that the earliest copy dates from the 11th Century, and as copying was done entirely by hand, the work may have been altered in many ways between the 1st to the 11th Century.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

PC, you need to read and understand Meadmaker's and svenax's posts, just as you needed to read and understand the posts I and others made on the Olympic Games thread with regard to the Jewish calendar.

You have fallen into an error in thinking that the Jewish calendar was lunar prior to the 4th century, and you've been corrected on this point numerous times. Clinging to your error is not helping your credibility.

The legend you've presented in your post above is just that; a legend. It's a pretty story but it's no more real or truthful than the legend of Father Christmas.

Please try to understand that even the theists here do not believe that you are communicating with a spirit when Ka Apaz puts on her 'Ama' act. Even those who believe in spirits would not be believing you by this time, because everything that Ka Apaz says when she's being 'Ama' is provably false when it pertains to both history and prophecy.

You've gone on record as stating you were disappointed when nuclear war didn't commence as you'd hoped. This is the most appallingly cruel, inhumane and disgusting response to the lack of war as could be imagined. Like DOC, your religious beliefs and the way you express them do more to turn people away from Christianity than any amount of reasoned debate.

You have made the simultaneous claims that Jesus was crucified both during Passover, and not during Passover. Anyone can scroll back to see your claims on this very thread; it is better to admit to an error than to try to talk yourself out of it. Even if Jesus ever existed, and even if he was crucified, it will have only happened once, so it must have happened either at Passover or not. Not both.

@Agatha, #477

This thread is about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and not about the Olympic Games (OG). Please submit your questions about the OG in the proper forum. Ask kmortis to revive it.

I said that the Jews were using TWO kinds of calendars, a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar, from the Babylonian exile during the seventh century BC until the calendar reformation in 358/359 AD. Not one but two. You think you have corrected me on this point, but no, you have not because you are thinking that the Jews never used a lunar calendar. You have not answered the points I raised.

Ama said that it is easier to accept falsehood than the truth. The tradition has been ingrained and people think they are true and correct like the crucifixion of Jesus.

You are thinking that Ka Apaz is just acting Ama. Ama is the source of the August 17 crucifixion date which I heard from old members when I first went to the Session Hall. Did you know that I have found many proofs that the date revealed is correct and that the Holy Bible is correct also (Ama recommended that we use the King James Version because it is nearer the truth)? As late as a few weeks ago. Years after I have finished and published on the Internet the results of the study.

Please reread my explanation regarding the crucifixion sometime near Passover. Is it correct to say that Jesus was crucified on Passover? That is the tradition, isn’t it?

 

[abaddon]

@Agatha, #483

abaddon said, “Well, that's hard to answer. Do you mean the bits Josephus wrote, or the bits added by later forgers? Which?” abaddon is the one who is saying that there are bits that were forged which were added later.

“In what way did I ‘solve’ it?” Since people couldn’t figure out what Josephus wrote, they charge that his work was a forgery. But it wasn’t. I was able to solve it using the Aristean Cycle and the Holy Bible.

There are blatant forgeries. I did the legwork for myself and found them.

Why is it that you cannot?

 

[Foster Zygote]

This thread is about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and not about the Olympic Games (OG).

But in this thread you are basing parts of your argument on the statements of "Ama", so it is perfectly legitimate to point out the complete and utter failure of your false prophet regarding past claims.

 

[Meadmaker]

This is what Constantine I said: “they [the Jews] frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year.”

See what Constantine I said, “frequently”. He did not say “always”.

At the time Constantine was writing, the Talmud had not yet been written. Standard Jewish practice had not been codified. Some Jews would have celebrated twice, others once. I do not know if the "runner" system reached to Asia Minor, Greece, or Rome during Constantine's day.

Also, as it turns out, Jews aren't really a uniform bunch anyway. I'm sure that some rabbis in the Roman Empire had heard about the two Passover celebrations and thought it was a good idea, and others thought it was stupid.

In summary, we know that at that time, some Jews celebrated Passover twice, just as today, some Jews celebrated Passover twice. If I read somewhere that someone celebrates Passover twice, I figure that's probably what he means, instead of saying that it's evidence of some super secret calendar which has been heretofore overlooked by both secular and religious authorities.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

At the time Constantine was writing, the Talmud had not yet been written. Standard Jewish practice had not been codified. Some Jews would have celebrated twice, others once. I do not know if the "runner" system reached to Asia Minor, Greece, or Rome during Constantine's day.

Also, as it turns out, Jews aren't really a uniform bunch anyway. I'm sure that some rabbis in the Roman Empire had heard about the two Passover celebrations and thought it was a good idea, and others thought it was stupid.

In summary, we know that at that time, some Jews celebrated Passover twice, just as today, some Jews celebrated Passover twice. If I read somewhere that someone celebrates Passover twice, I figure that's probably what he means, instead of saying that it's evidence of some super secret calendar which has been heretofore overlooked by both secular and religious authorities.

@Meadmaker, #492

But it was not only Passover that was being celebrated twice. It also happens in Shavuoth and in Sukkoth. Reference: Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 22, page 448. It says that “each festival is celebrated for an additional day in the Diaspora.”

 

[HansMustermann]

Actually, I think that the problem was simply that different rabbis calculated the date a bit differently, and there was a little room for jitter around the proper date. The first sentences in Constantine's letter state that it would be desirable if all celebrated easter on the same day. Which kinda tells you the problem: DIFFERENT people were getting different dates. So Constantine wanted a standardized calculation instead of that. I don't think his problem was much with some Jews (if any) who celebrated two passovers, but that different Jews told the Christians different dates, so you could end up with two or more different dates told to you as the real passover date.

It's also worth noting how things worked back then. The Christians had no idea how to calculate Passover, so every year they had to go ask some rabbi in their town.

But the rest of the time, the Christians were pretty anti-semitic to various degrees, ranging from just harassing the Jews about what they should accept Christ, to foaming-at-the-mouth anti-semitism. I mean accusing the Jews of some conspiracy or another is even in the canon gospels (see Matthew's trial. or finding the empty tomb, or Jesus's foaming at the mouth about "sons of vipers" pharisees, etc), plus at least one Pauline epistles, but some of the gospels of other churches, which weren't selected as canon by Irenaeus and the gang, are a lot less nice.

I mean, heck, read even just Constantine's letter ( http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/const1-easter.asp ) for some foaming at the mouth of the caliber of "he Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes" or "We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews" or ", we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews". That's anti-semitism plain and simple.

Now read the second paragraph again: and after harassing these Jews for a year, the same guys went and asked them basically, "say, when is passover this year? We must celebrate the day you guys killed him.' I wouldn't rule out that some rabbi or another would tell a wrong date for lulz there. I mean, I know I would in that kind of situation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

PC, I don't remember your offering any opinion on this;

Your assertion that this implies a purely lunar calendar is based on your assumption that the writer is talking about Passover occurring in December or January. But if you consider instead that the writer is referring to the ecclesiastical calendar starting in April, then the passage makes a lot more sense. The use of a different lunisolar claendar would mean that sometimes the Jews would celebrate Passover twice in a period regarded by Christians as being the same liturgical year.

The letter attributed to Constantine does not mention December or January. It does say twice in one year. If he were talking about the ecclesiastical calendar and the liturgical year, then that new year would have been at the start of April (which coincidentally still survives as the 6th April start of the financial year in the UK). If he were referring to this, then it appears to me the date of Passover would sometimes fall on one side of this date and sometimes on the other. Each time it changed, there would be two Passovers in one (Christian) year.

Even if you insist the entirely plausible explanation of Passover being celebrated over two days is not what the letter refers to, this seems to me to be a perfectly good explanation.

So is this just a case of April Fool?

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, #492

But it was not only Passover that was being celebrated twice. It also happens in Shavuoth and in Sukkoth. Reference: Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 22, page 448. It says that “each festival is celebrated for an additional day in the Diaspora.”

What's your point?

You are correct, but do you have a point? Constantine was talking about Passover and Easter, and saying we shouldn't worry about the "detestable" Jews, because they can't even figure out when Passover is, and some of the celebrate twice.

If he had been trying to set the days for Pentecost and Sukkot, he may have said the same thing.

 

[pakeha]

This came from the book “Follow the Year” by Mala Powers. On page 82 is “Legend of the Tree and the Cross”. ...

I'm confused, PC.
You've stated that comments about the false predictions given in those seances is off-topic in this thread, yet quote this pious legend as though it were fact and somehow pertinent to the topic.

Could you clear that up, please?
Also, since Passover is a festival associated with the Spring Equinox, how can we think there was ever a strictly lunar calendar used?

 

[Agatha]

@Agatha, #477

This thread is about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and not about the Olympic Games (OG). Please submit your questions about the OG in the proper forum. Ask kmortis to revive it.

There was no question in my post about the Olympic Games; I mentioned them merely as the subject of the previous thread. I suspect you did not read my post properly. If I wanted to post on that thread I would do so; it is not locked so I need not trouble kmortis or any other mod. My reference to your disappointment at the lack of nuclear war is a comment on your behaviour, not a question.

I said that the Jews were using TWO kinds of calendars, a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar, from the Babylonian exile during the seventh century BC until the calendar reformation in 358/359 AD. Not one but two. You think you have corrected me on this point, but no, you have not because you are thinking that the Jews never used a lunar calendar. You have not answered the points I raised.

You have said many things, including the idea that the Jews used two types of calendar, but you have failed to present evidence for any of them other than your interpretation of Bible verses or Ka Apaz's 'spirit' pronouncements.

Ama said that it is easier to accept falsehood than the truth. The tradition has been ingrained and people think they are true and correct like the crucifixion of Jesus.

If you want people to accept what you claim is the truth, you need to present evidence. The third hand ramblings of 'Ama' (whom you said you would denounce as false just a few months ago) are not evidence.

You are thinking that Ka Apaz is just acting Ama.

You have given us no reason to suspect anything else.

Ama is the source of the August 17 crucifixion date which I heard from old members when I first went to the Session Hall. Did you know that I have found many proofs that the date revealed is correct and that the Holy Bible is correct also (Ama recommended that we use the King James Version because it is nearer the truth)? As late as a few weeks ago. Years after I have finished and published on the Internet the results of the study.

You don't seem to have presented these 'proofs' to us, nor the evidence you used in arriving at your conclusions other than some odd interpretations of out of context Bible verses (which cannot be used as evidence for the veracity of the Bible) and more ramblings of your medium.

Please reread my explanation regarding the crucifixion sometime near Passover. Is it correct to say that Jesus was crucified on Passover? That is the tradition, isn’t it?

If Jesus existed, and if he was crucified as told in the Bible, then yes, he was crucified on Passover, in the spring, when it is not the time for figs to be ripe, and when it is quite warm enough in Jerusalem for a person to walk about in only a linen cloth.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica quote is referring to Jews in the Diaspora, far away from Jerusalem where it was not possible to judge with certainty the right date for the new year. Therefore they added an additional day to Passover, to be sure they were celebrating on the right day.

Constantine certainly wouldn't have expected the year to end in December (the tenth month). A twelve month year would have begun in March based on the names of September, October, November and December. A year which started in March would have Passover occurring sometimes just before the start of the year and sometimes just after. I haven't researched the Roman calendrical system, so at this stage it's a supposition.

 

[Akuma Tennou]

@Agatha, #483

abaddon said, “Well, that's hard to answer. Do you mean the bits Josephus wrote, or the bits added by later forgers? Which?” abaddon is the one who is saying that there are bits that were forged which were added later.

“In what way did I ‘solve’ it?” Since people couldn’t figure out what Josephus wrote, they charge that his work was a forgery. But it wasn’t. I was able to solve it using the Aristean Cycle and the Holy Bible.

oh stop this hypocrisy at once, pretty please? you already said the bible was wrong so it is not holy to you anymore nor for anyone here. stick to the facts

 

[abaddon]

oh stop this hypocrisy at once, pretty please? you already said the bible was wrong so it is not holy to you anymore nor for anyone here. stick to the facts

This is not hypocrisy. The Holey Babble can on the one hand be true and accurate, when needed, yet completely wrong and inaccurate as the situation demands.

Another miracle from gunderscored...Hallelujah. (or as we say here "what's it to ya?")