The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Astreja]

I have told you, Astreja, that neither “not ... during Passover” nor “sometime during Passover” is a lie.

False. Passover is 2 days long. Your claim that Jesus was not crucified within 2 days of Passover irrevocably, permanently renders one of your statements false.

You are clearly in violation of the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness." I think it's extremely unwise for any of us to take any of your advice, as you cannot follow the commandments of your own religion.

I am not a storyteller.

Yes, you are... You've been relaying stories. It doesn't matter if you thought them up or if Ka Apaz thought them up, as you have been passing all these ridiculous tales along to us.

You're just not a very good storyteller.

I just share what I heard and learned from a spirit who we talk to. Whether you will believe it or not is not for me to decide.

Aristeo, how many times must I reiterate that I don't believe you before YOU understand and accept and respect the depth and breadth and intensity of My disbelief? If necessary, I will tell you this over and over, every day to the end of My life.

I think that what you are telling us is false, grossly immoral, and stupid. I don't want any part of it. I will expend as much time as necessary to ensure that those beliefs are criticized publicly at every possible opportunity.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

This came from the book “Follow the Year” by Mala Powers. On page 82 is “Legend of the Tree and the Cross”.

The legend says that because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God, they were expelled from the Garden of Eden. When Adam was very old and ill, he sent his son Seth to Eden “to ask God for oil from the Tree of Mercy to ease his pain.”

Archangel Michael gave Seth three seeds from the Tree of Life.

“Seth returned home, and when Adam died, Seth planted the three seeds upon his grave. From the seeds three saplings grew and merged into one great tree trunk.”

“Many sacred things were made from the wood of the tree, including the rod used by Moses. Later, after the tree was cut down, it was used over a doorway in Solomon’s Temple. Still later, part of the tree became a bridge over which Jesus walked on his way to be crucified. And part of the tree was used as the cross itself, from which Jesus Christ poured forth both mercy and life into the earth, blessing all mankind and giving the promise of Eternal Life to all who will receive it.”

What the spirit of Ama told us was that the three seeds were given to Gumamela Celis (Blessed Virgin Mary in Heaven) to be planted many years before her being born. In the legend, Solomon’s Temple was mentioned. The wood of the tree was not its doorway but it is porch where Jesus walked in (John 10:23). The wood was not made into a bridge over which Jesus walked on His way to be crucified and the cross itself. Ama said that the wood of the tree was the cross itself that was used as a bridge to cross Kidron Valley on Jesus' way to the crucifixion site.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Next, let's move to the idea that Hillel "moved" any holiday at all.

You (PeaceCrusader) have shown no evidence that any of the Jewish holidays were ever celebrated on any date other than where they are celebrated today. You've made a couple of attempts, but all those attempts have shown is that you don't really understand Jewish customs. For example, your assertion that Constantine's letter proved that sometimes Passover was celbrated in January, and next in December, proved that you didn't understand the custom, both ancient and modern, of celebrating Passover twice, just to be sure.

@Meadmaker, #458

You accept that Hillel [II] reformed the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD. Why did he reform it? What did he do?

I have told you the dates when the festivals were held from 4 BC to 1 BC (http://aristean.org/wp116.htm ). To determine these, I used the Aristean Cycle developed during the crucifixion study from 1999 to 2003. I used the Aristean Cycle also when I did the nativity of Jesus study from 2004 to 2006 wherein I found that the Israelites were using a purely lunar calendar to determine the age of a person and the years stated in the Holy Bible.

In modern Jewish custom, yes, Passover is celebrated once a year only on Nisan 14 but prior to the Jewish lunisolar calendar’s reformation in 358/359 AD, Passover was in a purely lunar calendar that is why Constantine wrote “in their [the Jews’] blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error.” Why two passovers in the same year? Because the Jews were using a purely lunar calendar where Passover was with 354/355 days in a lunar year, and the Romans were using the Julian solar calendar with 365.2422 days in a solar year. This happened in the AD years 18, 51, 83, 116, 149, 181, 214, 246, 279, 311. It means that the Jews had Passover in early January and another one in late December.

 

[Akhenaten]

Why would an egyptian princess be grinding flour with some random peasant in Israel?

Taking time out from rescuing baby Israelites out of the Nile.

It's a busy life being a fictional Egyptian princess.

 

[svenax]

You accept that Hillel [II] reformed the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD. Why did he reform it? What did he do?

He codified how the intercalary month should be used, instead of having the use depend on observation. He did this because the emperor had forbidden the meeting of the Sanhedrin that decided on when to insert the extra month.

In modern Jewish custom, yes, Passover is celebrated once a year only on Nisan 14 but prior to the Jewish lunisolar calendar’s reformation in 358/359 AD, Passover was in a purely lunar calendar that is why Constantine wrote “in their [the Jews’] blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error.” Why two passovers in the same year? Because the Jews were using a purely lunar calendar where Passover was with 354/355 days in a lunar year, and the Romans were using the Julian solar calendar with 365.2422 days in a solar year. This happened in the AD years 18, 51, 83, 116, 149, 181, 214, 246, 279, 311. It means that the Jews had Passover in early January and another one in late December.

No, that is not why. The Jewish calendar has been lunisolar as far back as can be traced. Using a purely lunar calendar, passover would rotate through all the months of the Julian year. That is not what you are describing above. But with a lunisolar calendar using an intercalary month, the feast can flip around the Julian new year in the way you are actually describing. Haven't we been beating this dead horse long enough?

 

[Multivac]

Yes.
There are days when I expect PC will explain his calendar in terms of bistromath.
Until then, following the revelations of those seances, the readings from the Passionfruit Mahjong and hoping for a followup on the adventures of Angelina Imden are amusing enough til this thread finally jumps a shark too far.

Now, that would be worth reading!

 

[Multivac]

An imaginary calendar would seem the perfect timekeeping device for an imaginary event.
Stardate 875420066644442.1> Invention of the warp drive.

Thankyou for the first laugh of the day!

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, #458

You accept that Hillel [II] reformed the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD. Why did he reform it? What did he do?

See Svenax' answer.

It was all about finding a way to determine when Nisan 1 was, so that the holidays could be celebrated at the proper time.

In modern Jewish custom, yes, Passover is celebrated once a year only on Nisan 14 but prior to the Jewish lunisolar calendar’s reformation in 358/359 AD, Passover was in a purely lunar calendar that is why Constantine wrote “in their [the Jews’] blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error.” Why two passovers in the same year?

Oh, please. That's the exact opposite of what I said.

In modern times, Passover is celebrated twice per year. It is celebrated on Nisan 14, and it is celebrated on Nisan 15.

Really. It is. I'm not making this stuff up.

Some time during the 19th century, the rabbis in the Reform movement decreed that this was an unnecessary practice, so Reform Jews usually only celebrate once. For those of us who are part of a Reform synagogue, the second seder is considered an option. Very commonly, the first seder, on Nisan 14, is more formal with a more elaborate meal, while the second seder is done with faster haggadah reading and might be a potluck. In our family, we always get together with family on Nisan 14, and sometimes we get together with friends on Nisan 15.

Among Conservative and Orthodox Jews, though, the custom is to celebrate two full Passover celebrations every year. There is an exception to this, though. Jews living in Israel celebrate only one Passover.

Why?

The custom dates back to ancient times, before the time of Constantine in fact. The first day of the month was determined by the new moon at Jerusalem. They weren't as good at astronomy back then as we are now. Given a date of one new moon, you could know that the next new moon would be either 29 or 30 days later, but you weren't sure which. In order to determine when the first day of the month occurred, they had to look at the sky. The priests would watch the sky and declare that yes, it was a new moon tonight, and would proclaim it to all the people.

That worked fine for people living nearby, but what about people in Babylon and elsewhere? For the Babylonian Jews, they actually set a series of signal fires stretching across the desert. However, the Samaritans thought it was funny to light fake signal fires and confuse the Jews, so they started dispatching runners to Jewish communities in Babylon and around the Mediterranean. This took a long time, so they were never absolutely, 100% sure, during the first half of the month, what day it really was. Just to be absolutely certain they were getting it right, some Jews celebrated the holidays twice, every year. This practice eventually made its way into the Talmud, and became the normal way of doing things. Even though we now can be absolutely certain when Jerusalem will have a new moon, the custom survives to this day.

That is why Constantine said that the Jews sometimes celebrated Passover twice in one year. Because they did. We still do. It's no secret and requires no special insight.

But we never celebrate Passover in December, and there's no record of any Jew ever having done so.

 

[svenax]

Thanks for that, Meadmaker. One learns something every day. At least some of us do - not sure about PC though.

 

[Craig B]

The priests would watch the sky and declare that yes, it was a new moon tonight, and would proclaim it to all the people.

I believe the Muslim practice for Ramadan is to use local observations, and to break the fast at local nightfall. According to a history I read long ago about the Allied intervention in North Russia in 1918 / 1919, seamen in British crews on convoys to Archangel were mainly Muslims from the then Indian Empire. But Ramadan fell in the Summer that year, so there was no nightfall in the Arctic, causing great distress and hardship. It was finally decided by Muslim authorities that the fast would be broken at the moment of nightfall in Mecca. Of course by 1918 wireless communications were available, by which such information could be conveyed immediately.

 

[fagin]

However, the Samaritans thought it was funny to light fake signal fires and confuse the Jews.

That is actually funny. An ancient form of trolling.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

@Meadmaker, et al.

Could you please work out the years when these accounts by the first-century historian Josephus happened? Was he using a lunar, lunisolar, or solar calendar?
Accounts:
1. Fall of Jerusalem to the Romans
2. Assumption of the kingship by King David
3. Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians
4. Founding of Jerusalem by Melchizedek

The War of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm

 

[Craig B]

@Meadmaker, et al.

Could you please work out the years when these accounts by the first-century historian Josephus happened? Was he using a lunar, lunisolar, or solar calendar?
Accounts:
1. Fall of Jerusalem to the Romans
2. Assumption of the kingship by King David
3. Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians
4. Founding of Jerusalem by Melchizedek

Apart from the first of these things, how can the exact dates be known? Do you really have an accurate date for the founding of Jerusalem by Melchizedek, for example?

 

[Foster Zygote]

PeaceCrusader, do you think that by ignoring abaddon's post #457 it will just go away? The rest of us can see it quite clearly. So why would you post yet another "The spirit of Ama told us..." thread right after a long list of this so called spirit's many dismal failures regarding prophecy? What credibility do you think these claims could possibly have in the face of such utter failure? Why did you not admit that your prophet was false after the failed prediction regarding the Olympic Games?

 

[Akhenaten]

@Meadmaker, et al.

Could you please work out the years when these accounts by the first-century historian Josephus happened? Was he using a lunar, lunisolar, or solar calendar?
Accounts:
1. Fall of Jerusalem to the Romans
2. Assumption of the kingship by King David
3. Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians
4. Founding of Jerusalem by Melchizedek

The War of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1

What does any of this have to do with the topic?

 

[abaddon]

@Meadmaker, et al.

Could you please work out the years when these accounts by the first-century historian Josephus happened? Was he using a lunar, lunisolar, or solar calendar?
Accounts:
1. Fall of Jerusalem to the Romans
2. Assumption of the kingship by King David
3. Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians
4. Founding of Jerusalem by Melchizedek

The War of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm

Well, that's hard to answer. Do you mean the bits Josephus wrote, or the bits added by later forgers? Which?

 

[Agatha]

PC, you need to read and understand Meadmaker's and svenax's posts, just as you needed to read and understand the posts I and others made on the Olympic Games thread with regard to the Jewish calendar.

You have fallen into an error in thinking that the Jewish calendar was lunar prior to the 4th century, and you've been corrected on this point numerous times. Clinging to your error is not helping your credibility.

The legend you've presented in your post above is just that; a legend. It's a pretty story but it's no more real or truthful than the legend of Father Christmas.

Please try to understand that even the theists here do not believe that you are communicating with a spirit when Ka Apaz puts on her 'Ama' act. Even those who believe in spirits would not be believing you by this time, because everything that Ka Apaz says when she's being 'Ama' is provably false when it pertains to both history and prophecy.

You've gone on record as stating you were disappointed when nuclear war didn't commence as you'd hoped. This is the most appallingly cruel, inhumane and disgusting response to the lack of war as could be imagined. Like DOC, your religious beliefs and the way you express them do more to turn people away from Christianity than any amount of reasoned debate.

You have made the simultaneous claims that Jesus was crucified both during Passover, and not during Passover. Anyone can scroll back to see your claims on this very thread; it is better to admit to an error than to try to talk yourself out of it. Even if Jesus ever existed, and even if he was crucified, it will have only happened once, so it must have happened either at Passover or not. Not both.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

See Svenax' answer.

It was all about finding a way to determine when Nisan 1 was, so that the holidays could be celebrated at the proper time.


Oh, please. That's the exact opposite of what I said.

In modern times, Passover is celebrated twice per year. It is celebrated on Nisan 14, and it is celebrated on Nisan 15.

Really. It is. I'm not making this stuff up.

Some time during the 19th century, the rabbis in the Reform movement decreed that this was an unnecessary practice, so Reform Jews usually only celebrate once. For those of us who are part of a Reform synagogue, the second seder is considered an option. Very commonly, the first seder, on Nisan 14, is more formal with a more elaborate meal, while the second seder is done with faster haggadah reading and might be a potluck. In our family, we always get together with family on Nisan 14, and sometimes we get together with friends on Nisan 15.

Among Conservative and Orthodox Jews, though, the custom is to celebrate two full Passover celebrations every year. There is an exception to this, though. Jews living in Israel celebrate only one Passover.

Why?

The custom dates back to ancient times, before the time of Constantine in fact. The first day of the month was determined by the new moon at Jerusalem. They weren't as good at astronomy back then as we are now. Given a date of one new moon, you could know that the next new moon would be either 29 or 30 days later, but you weren't sure which. In order to determine when the first day of the month occurred, they had to look at the sky. The priests would watch the sky and declare that yes, it was a new moon tonight, and would proclaim it to all the people.

That worked fine for people living nearby, but what about people in Babylon and elsewhere? For the Babylonian Jews, they actually set a series of signal fires stretching across the desert. However, the Samaritans thought it was funny to light fake signal fires and confuse the Jews, so they started dispatching runners to Jewish communities in Babylon and around the Mediterranean. This took a long time, so they were never absolutely, 100% sure, during the first half of the month, what day it really was. Just to be absolutely certain they were getting it right, some Jews celebrated the holidays twice, every year. This practice eventually made its way into the Talmud, and became the normal way of doing things. Even though we now can be absolutely certain when Jerusalem will have a new moon, the custom survives to this day.

That is why Constantine said that the Jews sometimes celebrated Passover twice in one year. Because they did. We still do. It's no secret and requires no special insight.

But we never celebrate Passover in December, and there's no record of any Jew ever having done so.

@Meadmaker, #468

You are justifying the two days for Passover but that is not the case. The Jews celebrated two Passovers because the first was in early January and the second was in late December as shown in the following:

First Passover Second Passover
0019-01-08 0019-12-28
0052-01-04 0052-12-23
0084-01-11 0084-12-30
0117-01-05 0117-12-25
0150-01-01 0150-12-21
0182-01-07 0182-12-27
0215-01-02 0214-12-22
0247-01-08 0247-12-28
0280-01-04 0280-12-23
0312-01-11 0312-12-30
0345-01-05 0345-12-25

This is what Constantine I said: “they [the Jews] frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year.”

See what Constantine I said, “frequently”. He did not say “always”.

In Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 22, page 448, it says:
“In modern Israel, Pesah, Shavuot, and Sukkot are celebrated for the number of days prescribed by Scripture, namely, seven days, one day, and eight days, respectively (with Shemini Atzeret added to Sukkot). Due to calendrical uncertainties which arose in Second Temple times (6th century BCE to 1st century CE), each festival is celebrated for an additional day in the Diaspora.”

 

[pakeha]

What does any of this have to do with the topic?

O Pharaoh, once you realise the OP is about changing the calendar, based on revelations culled third-hand from seances held in the Philippines in the 70's and 80's, then it dawns on you that discussing the date for the foundation of Jerusalem by Melchisedek is probably perfectly logical.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Well, that's hard to answer. Do you mean the bits Josephus wrote, or the bits added by later forgers? Which?

@abaddon, #476

Was Book VI, Chapter 10, Section 1 of “The War of the Jews” by Josephus forged? I don’t think so because I was able to solve it.

We are discussing Josephus under the thread "The crucifixion of Jesus Christ" in order to establish that the date August 17 that Ama revealed is true and correct, that Passover was in August when Jesus was crucified and not in March or April.